Getting a shavs makes me sad.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

I actually agree that mf, or dedicated farming builds are mostly dead. I will however argue that this is not only due to drop-rate increases, but also due to the uber lab being very rewarding, along with having "content-bound" uniques such as starforge.

Content specific uniques have always really been a part of the game or at least since atziri was added.

Well, yes they have been since sacrifice of the vaal, however they were much less abundant back then, because the related content is so much easier these days. Heck, I remember the days in which acuity sold for way over 30 exalteds.

What I was trying to say was, that mf as a mechanic is pretty much outdated, because the uber lab was basically the "mercy-kill". If you wanted the general drop rate to be lower, I would argue that nerfing the uber lab in regards to full key runs would also be a necessity, because otherwise people would farm the UL exclusively, and drop rate adjustments would be "outmaneuvered".

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

However, bringing the leagues closer to standard is a good method of getting the standard crowd to join in to some extent, populating leagues more than before. And this is something I deem a very good trade-off. I would even go as far as arguing that the drop-rates of the past were a major reason for a subset of people not to play leagues at all.

This is homogenization. Standard is good for people that can't progress as fast or those people that don't want to lose progression, why change temp leagues to appeal to players that already play the game in a mode that works for them. Last numbers we saw temp leagues were 70% or so of the population, perhaps a bit more, post the drop rate change its not 80%, not really a significant gain, considering the negative tradeoffs associated with increasing accessibility of uniques.

Well, I am not saying that the outcome was ideal, what I am saying is I can see that being the intention behind it. As I was saying, this needs to be done carefully, in order to not be too homogenized. Sure it's kind of concerning, and I do agree that it's not the perfect approach either. Really though, nobody plays POE because it's perfect, let's be honest here.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

Well, some cards had a pretty significant impact on an item's value. Mortal hope would be a good example. On the other hand there is only one set that guarantees a shav's, unless someone recently made another card that I missed. I will argue that a considerable number of divination cards are a result of people having too much money, and too little understanding of balance.

I've found 5 shavs cards alone, seems to be a fairly frequent drop off her t13 map version, ESPECIALLY if the map is rolled difficult.

This is where I will argue that either GGG underestimates the player, or they were simply careless with the drop rate in the scriptorium. "Difficult" map rolls are subjective, but I can say for a fact that getting one card in 5 runs or so isn't right, especially when you get that card less often when running core, at least that's my experience so far, and it should definitely be the other way around. So yeah, the scriptorium drop rate needs a nerf for sure.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

The deal is that people these days move from one game to another quicker than a handfull of years ago. Very few games can pride themselves with a die-hard audience that lasts for over 5 years. Doubly so when players are confronted with things that are seemingly impossible to obtain in a certain time-frame. While you and the other early supporters may have carried this game to a certain point, you also need to consider that the few of you can't possibly pay enough bills for GGG as a means to keeping the game *that* niche. It all comes down to finding a middle-ground, and eventhough I am favour of item accessability, I will add that tuning the drop-rates back a bit won't hurt too much.

Another homogenization acceptance. Games are best when they don't try to be something that isn't what they were designed to be. GGG could have remained smaller and more niche, again back in the day we got more leagues, more races, more of everything, about the only things that we get "more" now is seperate language realms, which have no impact on me\us older supporters and more performance related improvements. That being said I rarely had issues after ssd, even lockstep+desync or whatever.

This is where we are deep in the territory of "guesstimation". I find it very hard to guess what goes on in GGG's overhead. However I can see a trend that you probably see as well.

While I am still "pro-accessability", I feel confident in saying that this game doesn't respect/require actual skill anymore (not that I think it ever did so all that much), which is my biggest gripe with it. Your approach here might be to blame it almost exclusively on the drop-rates, because easier access to power makes gameplay easier, and I can agree to some extent. My take on it is that the game's balance so out of tune that the drop rates actually play a fairly minor role in comparison to the drop rates.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

I would even go as far as recommending you to look at it from the perspective that now the game and its content is being carried by others more than ever before. You do have in mind that GGG started with a few people, and now has a staff of +80 people, yes?

Yet somehow they were able to do more before.

I would deem this to be a pretty daring claim. I mean, from personal experience I can tell you for a fact that a smaller team is way more flexible, and doing not too many different things at once makes for an easier and better coordinated process. The way I see it GGG is trying to lift too much weight at once these days, so to speak.

On the other hand though, did they really do more before? I don't believe so, to be honest. Races were more abundant back then, sure. Leagues however lasted longer periods of time, they are being released at a 33% higher rate than before. Adding new core-content? Heck, for how long have we been running merciless docks?! I think they are adding more these days than they did before: Act 4, lab, Shaper and guardians, lockstep, the trade improvements... I mean, come on, it's not as if there was barely anything happening as of late, but the things they do may feel "less dynamic" because the entirety of this game is "bigger" now, for lack of a better term.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

"Worthless"? This is something that can be discussed up and down. A state in which items are worth smaller amounts of currency is one thing, the "meta-value", as well as the resulting "relative value" is another matter entirely. And I am perfectly fine with the relative values such as it is, and as I mentioned earlier, I am OK with items being more affordable, because it speeds up the general currency-flow in this game.

It speeds up finishing a build as well, but who cares about the negatives, its all positives for you.

This is where I will argue that some people like "finishing" up their builds as quickly as they can these days.

To be fair, my goal always was to get as close to mirror-worthy rares as I possibly could during a league, so in that regard the increase in drop rates never really bothered me that much, because it simply was one core-item that I could get out the way and move on to polishing the rares that I would want use.

So for me finishing a build takes a long time anyways, because GGG, in their infinite wisdom, removed the eternal orb, because screw everyone who wants to craft reasonably. And don't get me started on the stupid reason they gave for the removal of it, because just thinking of this makes me want to puke so bad. Like, wtf? The eternal orb was such a good way of working towards something.

In short, I always liked the detail-work more than the basics, which is why for me the higher drop rates aren't a bad thing at all, especially when the currency flows at more consistant rate as a result. So I am looking at the positives here, sure. Why wouldn't I want to do so, when it gives me the liberty to do what I like doing the most?

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

Really though, it's always been like that, the only difference is that the increase in drop rates puts these natural mechanics under a magnifying lens. And this is where you argue that you don't like the perspective. I said it before many times, but here it is again: Your feelings are just your feelings, and you feeling good or bad about something doesn't mean you're necessarily right, as much as you would like to be.

When you can find t2 unqiues and just leave them on the ground thats an issue, when people don't even bother to pickup but 1% or less of the rare items that drop, that is an issue. These are things that didn't used to happen prior to div cards, prior to drop rate buffs. Clearly there is an issue here your inability to accept that makes me wonder why you think its alright.

This is due to the infancy of this game. Uniques are not what they should be. Skyforth's is one example: A motherlode of generic power, no strings attached. But I digress...

What I was going to say was that uniques have been handled the wrong way. When it comes to low-life, shav's is the go-to, Lorica is the band-aid/noobtrap. There is nothing inbetween that provides the same function. The lazy solution was upping the drop rate, to make shav's more available. The better solution would have been adding stepping stones inbetween those items, instead of upping the drops, hence a fated lorica would have been in order at the very least. But since we don't have the better solution, I prefer the lazy solution over having none at all.

The same can be applied to any other item category in this game.

Doomsower -> Starforge
Hezmana/Marohi -> Disfavour

If decent stepping stones existed on the way to tier 1 uniques, I would be perfectly fine with having those uniques at a significantly lower drop-rate, and I think it's safe to say everyone else would have been okay with such a solution. Now we're at the point of no return, because woe is day they pulled back the drop-rates to where they were. I can see the shitstorm from a lightyear away. A missed opportunity for sure.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

Perandus was a nice little breather after talisman, and I think it's best to think of it that way, rather than taking it serious.

The number one reason to play temp leagues is a new economy, when a league is designed around shitting on that aspect I don't find it as a "fun league"

Generally that is the case, so I am not even disputing that Perandus missed the mark that is the new economy, because the economy in perandus was just bonkers. My situation at that time was that perandus was just the happy-go-lucky-league that I needed. I don't disagree with you at all, just saying perandus was nice breather for me.

"

goetzjam wrote:

When its designed around a currency that can be farmed pretty much anywhere and a sink that is just items, its all reward and no risk. This is a significant departure from league design with risk\reward and a significant departure from the currency system that has worked so well for this game.

See above, I agree, never said perandus was objectively great, I said I found it subjectively fun, because it was a change of pace that was so ridiculous that I couldn't help myself and had to giggle randomly when Cadiro offered me a coil for umpteenth time.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

Yeah but this "abundancy" always goes either way. Yes, what I find sells for less, but what I want to buy is cheaper as well. "Relative value" being key here.

To an extent, finding something that is worthwhile and buying something that is worthwhile gives an overall better experience. Its like finding any uniques in standard the feeling is just nothingness, now the temp league after a month is basically the same.

The one thing that comes to mind here are streamers with "build-diarrhea". People who like to play many different builds are in favour of abundancy by way of nature.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

The difference, again, is only the amount of time spent on grinds for loot.

Which was far better because you felt more invested into a build, you worked towards something instead of just finding one item and completing a build based on it.

This is where I will point you back to a couple paragraphs ago: Upping the drops was a lazy solution, it should have been done better, and it very well could have been done better.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

In regards to Lorica I will add that I was actually pretty disappointed to not see a fated version of it, because I would have liked that a lot. Something like +200/250 ES with an added int requirement, so it's as easy to colour as a hybrid base. That would have been fine, and it would have kept the item "alive" a lot better. Furthermore I will also go as far as saying that a fated Lorica, similar to what I described, would be the one thing that would make me agree on reducing shav's rarity by a noticeable margin. But that's just me personally, and I am well aware that this wouldn't make a lot of people too happy. However it would be the middle ground that could be considered reasonable, in my opinion.

Compromise leads to a stale game. Compromise leads to giving up design goals in order to appeal to the left or right. If this game started as a 9 level on a hardcore scale its now a 5 or less. That is an issue, at least put it back to a 6-7, that would be the true compromise, not 5 or less.

Now you are contradicting yourself. Sticking to shav's and lorica as examples, you have the ideal solution and the compromise already. The compromise already exists, it simply has been made superfluous by the availability of the better item. Providing stepping stones while retaining the former drop rate would have led to a more enjoyable progression towards to ideal item, while still leaving the grind towards the absolute best item what it was. That would be the 7 or maybe even 8 on a scale from 1-10 that you are looking for: You have your long-term goal, and you have stepping stones along the way.

Being unwilling to make compromises at all leads to getting nowhere more often than not, is what I'm saying here.

"

goetzjam wrote:

Furthermore, one of GGG's biggest weaknesses is RARELY going back to review things that need to be fixed after they make a change that makes the thing they nerfed obsolete.

I can't agree more. Skills, nodes and items from way back when didn't age well at all.

"

goetzjam wrote:

Prime example is things like the scion starting area was nerfed because people would go scion to get access to sockets for builds like summoners or whatever and then they added AC classes, which completely changes the incentive to go one class over another.

I never understood this nerf to begin with.

"

goetzjam wrote:

Then you look at stuff like scion's ascendancy class that got nerfed, like the leech, pierce thing and whatever else got nerfed, when they knew they were adding 2 additional points for every other class, which makes scion less attractive in itself.

The fact of the matter is that Scion got screwed by ascendany bad enough as it were. GGG added insult to injury.

"

goetzjam wrote:

Hell even changes like the champion's massive nerf was COMPLETELY overdone. Again builds that went champion did it for fortify, its great it still has that purpose, but it completely gutted the additional bonuses for the class. Hell again, the 2 additional points is basically completely useless for a great number of builds that wanted to go champion.

Hell even readjusting the slayer was a massive "nerf" to champion because its far more attractive for melee characters.

I won't even disagree here all that much, though I will mention that this relatively far off-topic. But generally GGG has developed quite a few bad habits, and I will blame most of these habits on not getting the priorities straight, or being lazy. This has resulted in overnerfing quite a few times, as well as the ridiculous "nerf" to bladevortex that actually was a buff.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

So on one hand I think it's not too bad that Lorica isn't the "poorman's shav's" anymore. On the other hand I am actually a bit sad to see it being completely dead. Mixed feelings at their finest.

Pretty much all t2 uniques have been pushed out via power creep and easier accessibility to better alternatives.

Touched on that already, see above.

"

goetzjam wrote:

Lets say the power level needed to do atziri when she was added was 85% or whatever, in order to do atziri now its 60% or less. Due to power creep, ac classes (which is basically power creep) and easier access to items, which again is power creep.

Eh... Atziri and powerlevel... I usually got my first Atziri down like 2-3 days into a league, depending on build and drop-RNG. It's so easy that Atziri isn't even "benchmark-content" anymore. Like, what the fuck? Even half-assed builds can farm her.

"

goetzjam wrote:

When this happens people don't really have a need to min max gear or anything like that. People just get max links, whatever colors they need and with essences they are crafting basically awesome rares, which is part awesome, but part bad, because in the current league, absolutely nothing but perfect rares or t0 uniques are even worth anything as a result. So those positives about economy become massive negatives, especially in a SC league.

See above, day 2-3 Atziri no problem at all, even when playing at a more laid-back pace. Don't even need essence crafting for that, but it sure made things easier, because it accelerated the gearing process towards life/ES and resists by a lot.

"

Well, yes they have been since sacrifice of the vaal, however they were much less abundant back then, because the related content is so much easier these days. Heck, I remember the days in which acuity sold for way over 30 exalteds.

I sold a pair for 120 ex.

"

What I was trying to say was, that mf as a mechanic is pretty much outdated, because the uber lab was basically the "mercy-kill". If you wanted the general drop rate to be lower, I would argue that nerfing the uber lab in regards to full key runs would also be a necessity, because otherwise people would farm the UL exclusively, and drop rate adjustments would be "outmaneuvered".

Not really, one requires pieces and doing a buffed boss on the days in which its possible and the other requires you building around certain uniques. MF isn't something necessary, nor worthwhile doing in the lab, so they don't conflict like you are thinking.

"

Well, I am not saying that the outcome was ideal, what I am saying is I can see that being the intention behind it. As I was saying, this needs to be done carefully, in order to not be too homogenized. Sure it's kind of concerning, and I do agree that it's not the perfect approach either. Really though, nobody plays POE because it's perfect, let's be honest here.

This is a true statement, my concern is its already crossed several thresholds that overall making pieces of the game far worst then they should be.

"

This is where I will argue that either GGG underestimates the player, or they were simply careless with the drop rate in the scriptorium. "Difficult" map rolls are subjective, but I can say for a fact that getting one card in 5 runs or so isn't right, especially when you get that card less often when running core, at least that's my experience so far, and it should definitely be the other way around. So yeah, the scriptorium drop rate needs a nerf for sure.

Well I dont get them in 1 in 5 runs, probably 1 in 20 or so, i've done a lot of those maps.

"

While I am still "pro-accessability", I feel confident in saying that this game doesn't respect/require actual skill anymore (not that I think it ever did so all that much), which is my biggest gripe with it. Your approach here might be to blame it almost exclusively on the drop-rates, because easier access to power makes gameplay easier, and I can agree to some extent. My take on it is that the game's balance so out of tune that the drop rates actually play a fairly minor role in comparison to the drop rates.

Somewhat agreeable, but you need to realize that builds require gear, ac classes and what not can only take a build so far, so you need the gear to "break" the game even further.

"

On the other hand though, did they really do more before? I don't believe so, to be honest. Races were more abundant back then, sure. Leagues however lasted longer periods of time, they are being released at a 33% higher rate than before. Adding new core-content? Heck, for how long have we been running merciless docks?! I think they are adding more these days than they did before: Act 4, lab, Shaper and guardians, lockstep, the trade improvements... I mean, come on, it's not as if there was barely anything happening as of late, but the things they do may feel "less dynamic" because the entirety of this game is "bigger" now, for lack of a better term.

There was at least a year of 3 month leagues "back in the day", not only that but they had TWICE the league designs and still did expansions and gave us act 4. Is the rate perhaps a bit faster now then back then, sure but additional acts IMO don't really add near the same level as improvements to the actual game.

Lockstep happened while act 4 did, still when they were doing 2 leagues AND races.

"

So for me finishing a build takes a long time anyways, because GGG, in their infinite wisdom, removed the eternal orb, because screw everyone who wants to craft reasonably. And don't get me started on the stupid reason they gave for the removal of it, because just thinking of this makes me want to puke so bad. Like, wtf? The eternal orb was such a good way of working towards something.

Im with you about the eternal orb, but they like the whole master craft thing.

"

This is due to the infancy of this game. Uniques are not what they should be. Skyforth's is one example: A motherlode of generic power, no strings attached. But I digress...

No regen, Kappa.

"

What I was going to say was that uniques have been handled the wrong way. When it comes to low-life, shav's is the go-to, Lorica is the band-aid/noobtrap. There is nothing inbetween that provides the same function. The lazy solution was upping the drop rate, to make shav's more available. The better solution would have been adding stepping stones inbetween those items, instead of upping the drops, hence a fated lorica would have been in order at the very least. But since we don't have the better solution, I prefer the lazy solution over having none at all.

The other solution was div cards, which enable people to piece "a piece of the item" no one NEEDS to go low life in order to make a build worth doing, especially now. People used to transition builds now they just grab generic nodes and use whatever skill takes the least investment in order to kill mobs

"

If decent stepping stones existed on the way to tier 1 uniques, I would be perfectly fine with having those uniques at a significantly lower drop-rate, and I think it's safe to say everyone else would have been okay with such a solution. Now we're at the point of no return, because woe is day they pulled back the drop-rates to where they were. I can see the shitstorm from a lightyear away. A missed opportunity for sure.

They could slowly return the drop rates to almost the previous rarity, giving people time to adjust.

"

Generally that is the case, so I am not even disputing that Perandus missed the mark that is the new economy, because the economy in perandus was just bonkers. My situation at that time was that perandus was just the happy-go-lucky-league that I needed. I don't disagree with you at all, just saying perandus was nice breather for me.

I guess its fine you enjoyed it and that people in general might have. The issue is people honestly it was a good league, which it was not.

"

See above, I agree, never said perandus was objectively great, I said I found it subjectively fun, because it was a change of pace that was so ridiculous that I couldn't help myself and had to giggle randomly when Cadiro offered me a coil for umpteenth time.

You too, hum.

"

and it very well could have been done better.

Which is the very purpose in which I started to reply to this thread.

What are you two even talking about <.<?

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

Well, yes they have been since sacrifice of the vaal, however they were much less abundant back then, because the related content is so much easier these days. Heck, I remember the days in which acuity sold for way over 30 exalteds.

I sold a pair for 120 ex.

Yeah that was probably back when they were like fresh out the box. It was at that time that I didn't have enough time to concern myself with the top-end uniques, or grind end-game content either.

Really though, about half a year ago you could still ask 40ex for them, and get paid.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

What I was trying to say was, that mf as a mechanic is pretty much outdated, because the uber lab was basically the "mercy-kill". If you wanted the general drop rate to be lower, I would argue that nerfing the uber lab in regards to full key runs would also be a necessity, because otherwise people would farm the UL exclusively, and drop rate adjustments would be "outmaneuvered".

Not really, one requires pieces and doing a buffed boss on the days in which its possible and the other requires you building around certain uniques. MF isn't something necessary, nor worthwhile doing in the lab, so they don't conflict like you are thinking.

Pathfinder BV makes it possible any day you want. In case you're not running that build you can use the days in which you want to stay away for racking up offerings, and grind them down in one go when given the chance. So in the "long run", the random aspects of the uber lab don't matter at all. For early on in the league it's a different deal.

Sure you don't run IIR/IIQ builds in the lab, but the drops in the lab compete with what mf-builds could loot outside of it on the same market, that's what I'm saying. So if you make the farming outside of the lab less attractive... Well, I guess you can see where that's going, if the lab remains untouched...

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

This is where I will argue that either GGG underestimates the player, or they were simply careless with the drop rate in the scriptorium. "Difficult" map rolls are subjective, but I can say for a fact that getting one card in 5 runs or so isn't right, especially when you get that card less often when running core, at least that's my experience so far, and it should definitely be the other way around. So yeah, the scriptorium drop rate needs a nerf for sure.

Well I dont get them in 1 in 5 runs, probably 1 in 20 or so, i've done a lot of those maps.

I can tell you for a fact that I stayed away from that map as much as possible, because I don't like the layout of it. I totalled less than 20 runs, probably even less than 15 runs, actually, and got 3 cards out of it. Unless I have been extraordinarily lucky, there's something wrong. I ran core more often than scriptorium, and got only one card to drop there.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

While I am still "pro-accessability", I feel confident in saying that this game doesn't respect/require actual skill anymore (not that I think it ever did so all that much), which is my biggest gripe with it. Your approach here might be to blame it almost exclusively on the drop-rates, because easier access to power makes gameplay easier, and I can agree to some extent. My take on it is that the game's balance so out of tune that the drop rates actually play a fairly minor role in comparison to the overall balance.

Somewhat agreeable, but you need to realize that builds require gear, ac classes and what not can only take a build so far, so you need the gear to "break" the game even further.

Yeah you can't run around "naked". But really, with the carrying potential some ACs have, you can do a lot of content on a rather bare-bones setup. Like, fuck me, all you need is a 5 link, leech, VP and resists, all those are easy to get. And when you add ascendancies on top, you're already on the fast-lane. The exception here are builds that require enabling items

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

On the other hand though, did they really do more before? I don't believe so, to be honest. Races were more abundant back then, sure. Leagues however lasted longer periods of time, they are being released at a 33% higher rate than before. Adding new core-content? Heck, for how long have we been running merciless docks?! I think they are adding more these days than they did before: Act 4, lab, Shaper and guardians, lockstep, the trade improvements... I mean, come on, it's not as if there was barely anything happening as of late, but the things they do may feel "less dynamic" because the entirety of this game is "bigger" now, for lack of a better term.

There was at least a year of 3 month leagues "back in the day", not only that but they had TWICE the league designs and still did expansions and gave us act 4. Is the rate perhaps a bit faster now then back then, sure but additional acts IMO don't really add near the same level as improvements to the actual game.

Lockstep happened while act 4 did, still when they were doing 2 leagues AND races.

Yeah this is because they had the team to pull it all off at once, and the time was in favour of working on all these things. When you look at act 5 being virtually around the corner, with a beta coming up. Like, there's quite a few things happening.

True they had two different leagues running at the same time, which had it's pros and cons, but when you look at stuff like invasion and compare it to prohecy, there's quite a difference just in the "size" of these leagues content-wise, though I will say that tempest/warbands both were rather nice, and had a distinct vibe to them in terms of gameplay-impact, eventhough some people didn't like the warband drops for some reason. But that's why I am saying it's probably wise not to judge too quickly here.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

This is due to the infancy of this game. Uniques are not what they should be. Skyforth's is one example: A motherlode of generic power, no strings attached. But I digress...

No regen, Kappa.

As if that really mattered. ;-)

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

What I was going to say was that uniques have been handled the wrong way. When it comes to low-life, shav's is the go-to, Lorica is the band-aid/noobtrap. There is nothing inbetween that provides the same function. The lazy solution was upping the drop rate, to make shav's more available. The better solution would have been adding stepping stones inbetween those items, instead of upping the drops, hence a fated lorica would have been in order at the very least. But since we don't have the better solution, I prefer the lazy solution over having none at all.

The other solution was div cards, which enable people to piece "a piece of the item" no one NEEDS to go low life in order to make a build worth doing, especially now. People used to transition builds now they just grab generic nodes and use whatever skill takes the least investment in order to kill mobs

Yeah, I mean div cards and their purpose are something that always can be discussed up and down and whatnot.

Like, yeah you can use any skill without being low-life, and clear all the content. So in that sense shav's, lorica, and coruscating elixir don't even need to exist at all. However some builds really start shining when you can get one or two more auras going on top of pain attunement, and that's where I could see a point in regards to shav's being probably too cheap for what it does, because it's more or less an item taken for granted by now, which can be iterated upon quite a bit. But then again, the game is at a point where there's no valid alternative to shav's if you want to go lowlife, hence the drop rate has been increased by a quite a bit, I suppose. And again there's the thing with people having build-diarrhea, along with my stance towards the matter being that the grind for a shav's was too extensive for quite a few people, which I can understand perfectly fine as well.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

If decent stepping stones existed on the way to tier 1 uniques, I would be perfectly fine with having those uniques at a significantly lower drop-rate, and I think it's safe to say everyone else would have been okay with such a solution. Now we're at the point of no return, because woe is day they pulled back the drop-rates to where they were. I can see the shitstorm from a lightyear away. A missed opportunity for sure.

They could slowly return the drop rates to almost the previous rarity, giving people time to adjust.

If the basic idea is to turn back the drop rate every time a "stepping-stone-item" is introduced, yes, I can see that working, but it's pretty much tied to this condition for me personally.

"

Yeah that was probably back when they were like fresh out the box. It was at that time that I didn't have enough time to concern myself with the top-end uniques, or grind end-game content either.

Really though, about half a year ago you could still ask 40ex for them, and get paid.

This was a couple of months maybe 3-4 after they were introduced, probably a bit more because I can remember working with someone that was trying to comeup with a new build to farm uber, given that COE was just nerfed (i think)

Part of what makes them less valuable is the new VP location on the tree. Plus the fact you dont get instant leech on non critical strikes so it can be worst for some builds, at least in terms of consistency.

"

Sure you don't run IIR/IIQ builds in the lab, but the drops in the lab compete with what mf-builds could loot outside of it on the same market, that's what I'm saying. So if you make the farming outside of the lab less attractive... Well, I guess you can see where that's going, if the lab remains untouched...

What completes more with drops in the lab or MF is actual drop rates of items. The lab should always be rewarding to do, otherwise there isnt much incentive to go out of your way to do it, but so should MF. GGG killed off a whole playstyle with rarity changes in order to make builds more "accessible"

So we actually have less diversity and "better" loot as a result. Again this isn't seen as a positive for people that play a lot.

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The exception here are builds that require enabling items

Which are truly far and few inbetween, ESPECIALLY ones that have no alternatives, in this specific case shavs actually has multiple ones.

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Yeah this is because they had the team to pull it all off at once, and the time was in favour of working on all these things. When you look at act 5 being virtually around the corner, with a beta coming up. Like, there's quite a few things happening.

An act every 2 years is the same timeline of what they have done before, again with following the whole 2 league idea, races, blah blah blah. I feel like GGG might be too caught up in also working on expanding the game to other markets to focus on the market in which the game started in appropriately. I can't think of anything else that would possibly suck up as much time to prevent them from doing what they previous have done.

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True they had two different leagues running at the same time, which had it's pros and cons, but when you look at stuff like invasion and compare it to prohecy, there's quite a difference just in the "size" of these leagues content-wise, though I will say that tempest/warbands both were rather nice, and had a distinct vibe to them in terms of gameplay-impact, eventhough some people didn't like the warband drops for some reason. But that's why I am saying it's probably wise not to judge too quickly here.

Tempest was great, furthermore what was awesome about having different leagues was the ability to go to the other league to experience it's content. I'm somewhat fine with them just doing one league, but it has negative effects that again haven't been addressed properly IMO.

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Like, yeah you can use any skill without being low-life, and clear all the content. So in that sense shav's, lorica, and coruscating elixir don't even need to exist at all. However some builds really start shining when you can get one or two more auras going on top of pain attunement, and that's where I could see a point in regards to shav's being probably too cheap for what it does, because it's more or less an item taken for granted by now, which can be iterated upon quite a bit. But then again, the game is at a point where there's no valid alternative to shav's if you want to go lowlife, hence the drop rate has been increased by a quite a bit, I suppose. And again there's the thing with people having build-diarrhea, along with my stance towards the matter being that the grind for a shav's was too extensive for quite a few people, which I can understand perfectly fine as well.

There is nothing wrong with items that are out of people's grasp. Just playing this game shouldn't give you everything by week one or two, you need to be able to have long term goals that aren't "perfect rares", because that is chasing a never ending tail, except in standard where you can get whatever mirrored item you want (for a price of course)

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If the basic idea is to turn back the drop rate every time a "stepping-stone-item" is introduced, yes, I can see that working, but it's pretty much tied to this condition for me personally.

The thing is there are already at least 2 if not more alternatives to shavs. People just "refuse" to accept them, that doesn't make them anyless useable or alternative.