The Brass Dome Question on Crit Damage.

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ivkoto77777 wrote:

Hmmm... So basically, 5.5ex down the drain :/

Not at all.

As Adghar pointed out, there's plenty of reason to go without double body armor on a Juggernaut. It is highly attractive but not a requirement. That said...Brass Dome was pretty much purpose-built for Juggernauts using Unbreakable. If you're looking into Unbreakable, you'd need to have a pretty compelling reason to avoid Brass Dome. The use case for rare chests on Juggernaut mostly comes from "Am I using four nodes that aren't Unbreakable?" or "am I already using 4+ uniques and starting to really hurt for life/resistances?" If so, then there's likely room to wiggle for a good rare chest.

Also, it's still a really damn solid chestpiece for something that isn't a Juggernaut, or otherwise doesn't want to eat Brass Dome's rather significant drawbacks.

If you're on a build using Unbreakable and not a lot of other uniques...then yeah, Brass Dome starts to look like a very good play. Crit nullification can substitute for an Enfeeble curse and let you make use of solo Warlord's Mark instead for solid JuggerLeech, tons of defensive stuns, and a nice source of endurance charges. What attack(s) were you planning on using for the dual sword Juggalug?

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Vipermagi wrote:

Sucks to be you then, lol.

On the contrary.

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Vipermagi wrote:

It's an Occultist build. Curses are king of PoE. Enfeeble negates Crit Mult on non-Crit maps, and kills off a lot of Crit threat on Crit maps (Less Damage, good amount of -Mult, reduced Accuracy). Whoops, that's your advantage on a great majority of maps almost entirely gone. Have fun with your mediocre ES buffer and a pointless burden of a chest piece, one that is ripping your Block to shreds and constantly Shocking your ass because most hits are Crits.

Totems. Geofri. That one beyond dude.

Think before you post Vipermagi. Think. It isn't hard. Please do it.

Hexproof. Curse immune. There are some out there.

Anyways, Enfeeble doesn't technically negate crits or crit multi. It just drastically lowers it. It's the difference between enemies having 100% of their crit chance and 75% of it. Oh, wait, a difference of 25% isn't drastic.

I'll enjoy my 100% reduction against all enemies, including players while you enjoy a 25% reduction to many enemies.

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Vipermagi wrote:

The 18k ES setup can drop some ES and go Low Life, too, for Pain Attunement and a wealth of Reservation options. Grace for example coughs up a remarkable amount of mitigation - it even double-dips against Attacks by negating a chunk of Crits.

And again, it doesn't negate it. Only BD truly negates crits.

Blood Magic also has various differences. You'll want chaos resistance, which CI doesn't need. You're trading bit for bit.

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Vipermagi wrote:

That Brass Dome 'build' has a specific use-case. Outside of a Crit map, it's just worse than a normal ES build, or a Low Life build. But hey, have fun being Shocked for fucking ever in a Lightning Damage map, lol. Better keep that Shock Immune flask up 24/7 or you'll effectively be taking Crits from literally everything.

First off, if you're shocked and you don't remove it you're a bad player. If you run into a map with mostly lightning damage, you better load up on Topaz flasks, or at least flasks with shock immunity. It's just common sense.

And again, I suggest you think Viper. I said I don't like the stray crit, or load of stray crits. It may not happen often, but I'd rather it never happen than it happen now and then. When one is playing hardcore, you try your best to avoid things you cannot control.

I'm not doubting nor questioning the power of a regular build. Regular having the meaning of anything not involving Brass Dome. However, I'm just stating I'd take Brass Dome over any other chest piece and build with it, just because it truly negates all crits, so that I have some ease of mind when it comes to enemies.

Not that much to comprehend.

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Natharias wrote:

Anyways, Enfeeble doesn't technically negate crits or crit multi. It just drastically lowers it. It's the difference between enemies having 100% of their crit chance and 75% of it. Oh, wait, a difference of 25% isn't drastic.

I'll enjoy my 100% reduction against all enemies, including players while you enjoy a 25% reduction to many enemies.

Enfeeble also has a subtraction from Critical strike multiplier that you might have missed. It scales from -21% to -30% at gem level 20, which conveniently matches up with 130% multi crits from enemies on non-crit-mod maps, which means Enfeeble actually does result in 100% reduction on non-crit-mod maps, with 100% curse effectiveness at least.

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ivkoto77777 wrote:

Hmmm... So basically, 5.5ex down the drain :/

I disagree. If you just care about stacking armour, then yeah Brass Dome is way better.

But your chest also has huge life and some resists too. Also it doesn't have -10% movement speed (everyone seems to overlook this a bit, but it makes Brass Dome a poor chest piece for clearspeed), and it doesn't give a 30% reduction to block chance or 50% increased shock duration. (Increased shock duration also means you are more likely to be shocked, because of how shock only works if its duration is long enough.)

Pretty much every time I look at Brass Dome I see that -10% movement speed mod and go on to the next thing.

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Natharias wrote:

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Vipermagi wrote:

Sucks to be you then, lol.

On the contrary.

Best dialog ever.

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adghar wrote:

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Natharias wrote:

Anyways, Enfeeble doesn't technically negate crits or crit multi. It just drastically lowers it. It's the difference between enemies having 100% of their crit chance and 75% of it. Oh, wait, a difference of 25% isn't drastic.

I'll enjoy my 100% reduction against all enemies, including players while you enjoy a 25% reduction to many enemies.

Enfeeble also has a subtraction from Critical strike multiplier that you might have missed. It scales from -21% to -30% at gem level 20, which conveniently matches up with 130% multi crits from enemies on non-crit-mod maps, which means Enfeeble actually does result in 100% reduction on non-crit-mod maps, with 100% curse effectiveness at least.

I don't miss anything, adghar. You've done this a few times now and each time you've gone "Oh".

I'm just talking about taking the crit. Enfeeble only lowers it by a flat 25%. Brass Dome basically makes it to where you don't care if it is a crit or not, because it won't change the damage outcome.

On the topic of whether that rare chest was "5.5 ex down the drain," I have some mixed feelings.

Firstly, there's resale value. Since items don't decay in Path of exile, you could potentially recover 100% of cost or more if you're patient enough. I'm personally real impatient with the market, so I'd personally accept a loss of 1 ex on sale.

Secondly, you could think of Unbreakable as "catching up" to the Brass Dome in terms of Armour. Since my experience has shown 4k chest Armour is sufficient to tank the Physical Hits I worry most about, your build should work if you spend 2 ascendancy points matching Dome. Not sure if it's worth 2 points to do that, however.

Thirdly, against non crits, which is the greater percentage of your playtime, the rare Armour is probably better. Life defends against elemental, chaos, and all DoTs, and Dome has no Life.

Fourthly, especially with all the uniques out there nowadays, don't underestimate the resist pressure relieved by your rare chest! You don't even have to replace other gear slots with uniques. If you don't need as much resist, you can invest in offensive jewelry, for example. More accuracy, crit, attack speed, elemental damage if that's your thing, flat physical damage. And of course, the pool of strong uniques is fairly large. Blood Dance for frenzy and regen. Black Sun Crest if you're building Strength. Empire's Grasp for knock-in shenanigans. Anvil for block. The list goes on.

In other words, one of the most underrated abilities for PoE players is probably flexibility! There are lots of opportunities to adjust for your previous choices out there, so don't be discouraged! They just happen to take a little more work than in other games.

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Natharias wrote:

I don't miss anything, adghar. You've done this a few times now and each time you've gone "Oh".

If that's the case, I haven't quite reached that point here yet :p

I think I follow your train of logic, but I prefer to express things in the same units. If nothing else, it's a little eccentric to compare only one choice's chance effect with the other choice's multiplier effect. It would be more fair to put them on even playing fields:

Chance
Brass Dome: 0% reduction
Enfeeble against most: 25% reduction
Enfeeble against Map bosses: 10% reduction

Multiplier
Brass Dome: 100% reduction
Enfeeble against majority: 100% reduction
Enfeeble against normal Map bosses: 40% reduction
Enfeeble against red map crit normal monsters: 30/70 = 43% reduction
Enfeeble against red map crit Map bosses: 17% reduction

Overall
Brass Dome: 100% reduction
Enfeeble: ranges from about 25.428% to 100% depending on the situation

No one is arguing that eliminating enemy crit multiplier isn't a worthwhile goal, Nath.

Folks are arguing that the opportunity cost of doing so on an ES build is too high. For the astronomical investment of getting workable ES levels on a Brass Dome build, and dealing with freeze/shock, and dealing with the movespeed penalty, and sacrificing resistance, and...

You can get 12k to 15k ES on a reasonable budget, use Enfeeble to mitigate enemy crit chances and basic accuracy, which means a reduction in total number of hits taken. The entire point of crazy-high ES builds in the first place is to provide enough of a buffer to eat unexpected spikes of damage and give you time to recognize them and recover from them. You shouldn't need to spend thousands of exalts to eliminate spike damage from an ES build - they're specifically designed to survive spikes.

You're compromising your ES build's offenses, defenses, and utility all three in order to...improve the build's defenses.

Why?

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1453R wrote:

No one is arguing that eliminating enemy crit multiplier isn't a worthwhile goal, Nath.

No, it isn't. That's not what I'm talking about either.

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1453R wrote:

Folks are arguing that the opportunity cost of doing so on an ES build is too high. For the astronomical investment of getting workable ES levels on a Brass Dome build, and dealing with freeze/shock, and dealing with the movespeed penalty, and sacrificing resistance, and...

First off:

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1453R wrote:

and dealing with freeze/shock

Flasks.

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1453R wrote:

and dealing with the movespeed penalty

Mobility skill.

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1453R wrote:

and sacrificing resistance

One item not having resistances doesn't mean anything.

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1453R wrote:

You can get 12k to 15k ES on a reasonable budget, use Enfeeble to mitigate enemy crit chances and basic accuracy, which means a reduction in total number of hits taken. The entire point of crazy-high ES builds in the first place is to provide enough of a buffer to eat unexpected spikes of damage and give you time to recognize them and recover from them. You shouldn't need to spend thousands of exalts to eliminate spike damage from an ES build - they're specifically designed to survive spikes.

Yet ES builds are by far the most expensive in the game. ES builds require gear that has both flat ES and percentage ES rolls on gear. That's two mods in and of itself. Then you need resistances on gear.

Life only requires one mod on gear, aside from normal resistance mods. Strength is icing on the cake that is life.

But this is my entire point. An ES build with 20k ES has to worry about crits. It may not be often, but it still has to worry about it. On top of that, at least one curse is used to address crits. While effective, it is not effective against other content. All of a sudden enemies are doing 30% or so more damage against you now and then, and there's nothing your 20k can do about it except have superior leech.

A 14k ES version would negate crits at all times while enjoying the use of another curse. Or, it could still use Enfeeble and benefit from it even more.

Y'all are talking like Enfeeble somehow helps a non-Brass Dome ES build more than a Brass Dome ES build. If anything, it helps Brass Dome more.

Brass Dome may have reduced block chance, but you can still cap it with a good shield and sufficient Reckless Defense jewels. While ineffective to totally cap it, you can make use of them without any worry-like you would be worrying on a non-Brass Dome build.

I'll try to be as clear as I can. Brass Dome ES is about stacking Reckless Defense jewels so you can get higher block, which deals with the vast majority of "bulk" damage. Brass Dome deals with the drawback of Reckless Defense, but makes the block capability of your character less. Overall, you have a ton of block and all crits are negated. You still have considerably massive ES. Take away Brass Dome and you have to take away Reckless Defense-not because you can use Enfeeble to counter crit multi, but because you cannot use Enfeeble against some enemies and it is those enemies that will be the death of your character. You cannot suddenly swap out a bunch of Reckless Defense jewels just because you saw a totem pop, or a certain beyond boss spawned-you won't have time for that.

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Vipermagi wrote:

Your vast knowledge of mechanics constantly astounds me.

Enfeeble is a flat reduction to enemy Crit Mult.
By default, monsters have 130% Crit Mult.
A level 20 Enfeeble reduces this by 30.
Curse Effect reduces it further.

Crits deal zero Extra Damage due to Enfeeble. This is exactly the same effect as The Brass Dome for the vast majority of enemies.

Enfeeble takes a curse. Brass Dome takes an item slot.

In the end, it's just about which slot you want to use.

That's what I was getting at Viper. Curses are far more flexible. Items aren't. Items compensate by being more effective at the thing they do.

Your lack of understanding a simple point astounds me.