The Brass Dome Question on Crit Damage.
" No. Don't try to worm your way out of this, like you always do. You called Enfeeble (paraphrased) '25% Crit mitigation against most enemies' in the same sentence where you called BD '100% against everything'. Your "simple point" was blatantly wrong. Deal with it. You weren't saying "oh it's just a trade-off between two slots", you were saying Brass Dome is four times better at mitigating crits than Enfeeble, because you didn't know what Enfeeble did. --------- "Brass Dome may have reduced block chance, but you can still cap it with a good shield and sufficient Reckless Defense jewels." You need 107% Block to cap out with The Brass Dome. That's unreasonably high if you're shooting for more than 10k ES sans body armour. You get 30-35% from your Shield, 4% per Reckless Defence. Are you going to slot eighteen Reckless Defence jewels? | |
" I think you misunderstood Natharias' point here. I assume it was a genuine misunderstanding though, you didn't deliberately cherry-pick only part of what he said and ignore the context. Anyway, even though Natharias said: "Brass Dome may have reduced block chance, but you can still cap it with a good shield and sufficient Reckless Defense jewels." In the very next sentence he said: "While ineffective to totally cap it, you can make use of them without any worry-like you would be worrying on a non-Brass Dome build." So I don't think you really needed to point out that it would be ineffective to totally cap it. PS: Also it is easy to block-cap with the Brass Dome if you are a necro and have a Rumi's flask. Face it, all of your suggestions are worse than this idea:
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/657756 |
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I mean I can go on if you want...
"While ineffective to totally cap it, you can make use of them without any worry-like you would be worrying on a non-Brass Dome build." Only true for Crit and Hexproof Maps. On a non-Crit Map, Enfeeble is still far better at reducing Crit threat than The Brass Dome: -Same effect on Crit Mult; from 130 to 100 -Enfeeble also increases Chance to Evade, reducing hits taken -Higher Chance to Evade further reduces amount of Crits The BD setup would still get Crit all the fucking time too, despite it being a non-Crit map. Yeah, no worries at all. Just gotta play the piano to keep up your two Status Immunity flasks permanently. Sure am glad I nuked the shit out of my ES for some mitigation against a specific Map mod. Investing more in Block than the "proposed" six Jewel slots is also going to cost you something somewhere. You cannot afford to give up ES, it's already far too low. At least Cospri's Will also offers a useful mitigation stat and Poison. "PS: Also it is easy to block-cap with the Brass Dome if you are a necro and have a Rumi's flask." The Mirror shield had 31% Block, perfect Rumi's grants 30%, Bone Offering 35%. Still requires three Reckless Defence jewels. If you don't have a +6% Block shield, throw in two more RD's (one if you have a level 22 Bone Offering). You also lose out on all the survivability offered by the Occultist; Regen on Kill, 100 flat ES (which is sorely needed), a bit of Increased ES, ES Recharge lasts for four seconds minimum... And to top it off, you're looking at 55% when Rumi's is not active. "Easy!" ------------- CI Brass Dome is not a strong setup. The investment requirements are plain absurd, for far too little returns. Yes, it mitigates strong Crits - but having 18k ES makes them relatively non-threatening too. Sure, you could take a big Crit and lose a large chunk of ES, but that's why you have recovery. Just walk away for two seconds and you're back up to full, with another three seconds of ~10k ES Recharge per second. Last edited by Vipermagi on Oct 22, 2016, 5:19:03 PM
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" I'm not worming my way out of anything. I trust you know what context is? If Brass Dome causes crits to deal no additional damage, then it effectively removes crit chance and crit multiplier. Literally the only difference is that 5% of the time hits do apply status effects 100% of the time. However, proper play renders that meaningless. Thus, you can use Reckless Defense without any "real" penalty. Brass Dome does mitigate crits by 100% and Enfeeble only by 25%. " Do you really think I don't know what Enfeeble does, Vipermagi? Really? Are you that thick? " Thank you dubio. At least someone knows who context is. " And now the text between the lines comes out. How many people do use Rumi's? Quite a few. " At this point, it's obvious you don't even care about the point I was trying to make. If you'd like me to repeat it, I'll gladly do so. However, there is the thread available to you.
P.S.
"Just because of a map mod" is very bad, Vipermagi. If we are using that kind of logic, every build should be Blood Magic.
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" Is this true even for Izaro and map bosses? " This is not as much of an issue on a CI build as it would be for a life build. You probably would have flasks running most of the time you were in combat anyway. Face it, all of your suggestions are worse than this idea:
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/657756 |
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" The Brass Dome does mitigate 100% of Extra Crit Damage, yes. It does not mitigate Status Ailments. Enfeeble reduces almost every monster's Extra Crit Damage to zero, just like The Brass Dome does. 99% of monsters deal zero extra Damage and apply Status Ailments on less than 5% of their attacks, rather than more than 50%. How, exactly, is Enfeeble only 1/4th as effective as The Brass Dome? Oh, right, you assume literally every Map has Crit mods, to best suit your needs. " You need a 31% Block shield and twelve perfect Reckless Defence jewels to cap Block (that's 1 Mirror-worthy shield plus 36 Exalts on Standard, btw), assuming a 30% Block Rumi's. Yes, people often run Rumi's because 30% Block is good - but you're only getting 20% Block from it due to The Brass Dome. Getting twelve Jewel sockets means getting even less ES. Enjoy. " Nnnno, because Blood Magic makes a large amount of builds actively worse. Have fun running Blasphemy Poacher's Mark on a Blood Magic Ar/Ev build! The BD CI build only meaningfully benefits on a Crit Map, and even then it's not foolproof. Even then it still runs into downsides. Even then it only works if you have fucking amazing gear. Even then it still has zero Damage passives whatsoever. If you really think it's such a brilliant idea, go ahead and build it why don't you. (don't answer that, I already know what you're going to say) " Curse Effectiveness is a thing, but the base Crit Mult is all the same. I didn't bother to mention the Less Damage before, because it wasn't terribly relevant to my point. However, because Act Bosses do get a bit of Crit Mult against Enfeeble, I'm actually taking it into account here. A normal Curse build runs 40% Increased Effect: Skittering Runes + Whispers of Doom + Quality on either Curse on Hit or Blasphemy: 30 * 1.4 * 0.4 = 16% Crit Mult reduction, 16% Less Damage. 47 * 1.4 * 0.4 = 26% Reduced Accuracy Crits deal 100 * 1.14 * 0.84 = 95% of what a non-Enfeebled non-Crit hit does. And they hit notably less often with their Attacks. It's always worthwhile to get a bit of Evasion on any Enfeeble-using character. " It's even less an issue for Life builds. High Life means you rarely get Chilled/Frozen in the first place, and because you're a Juggernaut you can even pick up a Passive that says "Chill/Freeze don't do shit." On top of that, the Life build gets actual Armour (easy 25k from the body alone), access to Endurance Charges, and doesn't get Stunned to kingdom come. There's even room for Block passives so you don't need twelve RD Jewels. Heck, you could even run Evasion gear as well, to massively reduce the downside of Reckless Defence against Attackers! So the only advantage is that CI cannot use Life Flasks to instantly recover your HP, and thus might as well use more utility flasks. They're gonna be necessary, that's for damn sure. ------------ EDIT: Just for laughs, let's see the 'true' effect of Enfeeble on a Crit map. Just 'cause. The red Map mod grants 400% Increased Crit Chance and +45 Crit Mult (max rolls, we will settle for nothing less). Pretty scary, right. Enfeeble reduces Crit Chance by 49%, leaving them with +351% - not terribly significant. Enfeeble reduces Crit mult by 42, leaving enemies with 133% Crit Mult. Enfeeble also reduces Damage by 42%, making Crits deal 133 * 0.58 = 77% normal Damage. So basically, normal enemies do nothing whatsoever. Unless you're also going to run a defensive Curse with The Brass Dome and zero Damage passives, you're actually taking more Damage than a proper Enfeeble setup. The one enemy with Curse Effectiveness is a bit more intimidating, though. 175% Crit Mult becomes 159%, at 84% normal Damage. 159 * 0.84 = 133% normal Damage. That's... just barely above an unmodified Crit. Still, mitigating that Crit damge is good. Not sure if it's worth taking an assload more Crits and losing 5000 ES for. Last edited by Vipermagi on Oct 23, 2016, 7:50:45 AM
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Thanks for calculating those Vipermagi!
It seems like the brass dome's ignoring crit power is not great, because enfeeble is just better. Without enfeeble you can run an extra curse, though (and without blasphemy to make enfeeble as reliable as the brass dome, you can also run an extra aura). So it's not necessarily as clear cut as that. But you should probably only run the brass dome if you aren't also running enfeeble. All this talk about it has made me really want to run a self-temp-chains Juggernaut with the brass dome, lots of reckless defense jewels and taste of hate, and then try to get perma-frozen for Winterheart (And Berek's pass maybe?). But even then, Essence of Horror on a rare chest with enfeeble would probably work better :( " Yes you are :P Face it, all of your suggestions are worse than this idea: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/657756 Last edited by dudiobugtron on Oct 23, 2016, 3:56:42 PM
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One part of me is thinking "why won't this thread die?!"
The other part of me is thinking "goddamn I love the brass dome and I love theory craft and I love math and I just love all the theoreticals this thread is exploring." I think the second part is winning out, honestly. Natharias has mentioned he plays as though his characters are in a Hardcore league, which is why I can see some theoretical benefit to his approach - ignoring Hexproof and Less Curse Effectiveness is attractive for the sake of consistency. But of course the cost benefit analysis comes into play and it becomes questionable whether it is all worth it. If one is running out of other builds to play, I say why not? Be the hipster. Run CI brass dome. It'll be a nice challenge. Btw one thing that just occurred to me. Even though you gain consistency on the curse side, you lose consistency on the status effects and Stun taken side, which both Natharias and Vipermagi agree is best addressed with Flasks. Personal preference: I HATE relying on Flasks. I enjoyed Lord of the Potions in Diablo 2 because you didn't need kills to refill your pots, just town portals. But even with Flaskfinder gains I'm way too afraid of losing flask charges in a "can't-get-kills-or-absurd-crits" scenario. So even though I like playing hipster, even if I had infinite exalteds, I probably wouldn't play CI brass dome for long. But that's just me. Need game info? Check out the Wiki at: https://www.poewiki.net/ Contact support@grindinggear.com for account issues. Check out How to Report Bugs + Post Images at: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/18347 Last edited by adghar on Oct 23, 2016, 4:26:03 PM
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" Yeah, Enfeeble is rather overstatted, even with one useless modifier. Still, it's worth repeating, the Crit mitigation is really good if you're not playing The Curse Ascendancy with a tree that passes by every Curse cluster. Life/Ar/Ev in the Mara/Duelist zones, for example. " True. I am the world's biggest liar. :( " Cospri's Will is far better than The Brass Dome for an ES build. Lose the same amount of ES, but Evasion synergizes much better with Enfeeble, Poison is good, +1 Curse yes, and you ignore Hexproof. Only five or so monsters that you cannot Curse at that point, and they're all Unique enemies? It's not that big a deal, you'll know exactly where they are before engaging them. " Eye of Chayula doesn't offer much, but one of its few modifiers is still Stun Immune. It sucks to lose the ES, but there are worse fates. Being stunlocked for example. :P Auxium is quite fine at preventing a lot of Chill/Freeze, which is going to be crucial when you're taking Crits every second. Ignite I imagine is largely annoying against Fire damage bosses? Occultist Regen on Kill should cover it for pack clearing and rares. It's mostly Shock that is very worrisome, being Shocked turns every Hit into a boosted Crit, and Fairgraves' Tricorne is just not an option. That's what makes it a highly flask-reliant setup. | |
" Read what I put: " Don't worm your way out of it. And definitely don't twist what I said. " The cost-benefit analysis is one of two things: Are you playing to 100? If so, then yes it is worth it. You build and play to win, not to enjoy the game. Are you playing to finish your build? Then no. Brass Dome CI is not worth it. You can use just about any other chest and finish your build while clearing most content. The latter is not how I go about things. This is why I, too, hate flasks in this game. I cannot for the life of me understand why GGG decided flasks should be based on kills than any other aspect. It would've been more balanced if they had simply done a timer on them, rather than kills. Timed flasks would help slow down the bullshit we have nowadays; speeding through maps so quickly 99% of all drops are ignored. |
