Premium Tabs are pay to win

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Casual_Ascent wrote:

3rd party tools are spyware and unsafe.

Trade tabs are for casuals and are P2W.

Just the way it is.

Stop spreading lies.

I can promise you that your PC is in far more danger from literally anything else you do on the computer then using a program like procurement or acquisition.


How about you get off your ass and support the game you play instead of bashing it every second you get?

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MrTremere wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

I can promise you that your PC is in far more danger from literally anything else you do on the computer then using a program like procurement or acquisition.

I'd rather not be as categorical as either of you.
I can't guarantee that there is spyware in any version of those programs.
But I can't guarantee either that the version you get your hands on will be free of any liabilities. After all, many programs have multiple versions available on the internet, some having been altered to install adware or other nocive programs on your computer.
Also, "free" add-ons like this are excellent places to put insidious malware. This has already been done many times in the past, especially on map-hack programs for Diablo 2, and possibly for PoE too.

If you aren't using the github versions of these programs, from the actual makers in the massive threads, well thats your fault, not mine.

Again you can compile the code yourself as well as going as far as sandboxing the software if you so choose.

In addition the programs when they need updated take you directly to the github page with the author where you can verify.

I mean everyone here is using Emmitt's skill tree planner right, no fucking issues using that, but apparently using another program somehow is more "risky"

Guys, there is no such thing as Pay2Win in this game. Since this game is PvP and not PvE. Yes, stashtabs are an advantage and provide you a better game experience, but other then that, you can easily play the game with just 4 stash tabs.

And lets not forget that stash tabs are a one-time purchase. In other games, you pay for double experience for 30 days. Or a pet that loots items for you. And those games are often designed in a way, that you can't progress anymore without those things. I played Silkroad in the past (korean MMORPG grinder). At lvl 40, a monster gave me 0.02% experience points. So I had to kill 5,000 to get a level up. With an exp boost, that number was halved. And with a pet that loots items for you, you killed double as many monsters in the same time without having such a pet. So all in all, the exp boost + pet reduced your time to level up by roughly 75%. You know how much that cost me? 10$ for 30 days exp boost and I think 5$ for the loot pet. And both things only were active for 30 days. That means I would have had to pay 15$ per month to be able to progress to high levels.

The Stashtabs from PoE however are only bought once. You pay your 20$ for 6 premium stash tabs and are good to go. And another 7.50$ for the currency stash tab. That's still less then most games cost today. And lets not forget that both those things can have a special price. THe price reduction isn't high, but it saves you some $. And then take a look on how many hours you will play this game. 1000 hours? I dont thin that 20$ are much for having 1000 hours of fun and lets not forget, that you get something for those 20$ in return.

All in all I think people should just buy the things and shouldn't worry about pay2win. PoE is very fair in this I think, because tashtabs are really the ONLY things that provide you a little advantage, but other then that, you can play this game for as long as you want.

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AceNightfire wrote:

Guys, there is no such thing as Pay2Win in this game. Since this game is PvP and not PvE. Yes, stashtabs are an advantage and provide you a better game experience, but other then that, you can easily play the game with just 4 stash tabs.

And lets not forget that stash tabs are a one-time purchase. In other games, you pay for double experience for 30 days. Or a pet that loots items for you. And those games are often designed in a way, that you can't progress anymore without those things. I played Silkroad in the past (korean MMORPG grinder). At lvl 40, a monster gave me 0.02% experience points. So I had to kill 5,000 to get a level up. With an exp boost, that number was halved. And with a pet that loots items for you, you killed double as many monsters in the same time without having such a pet. So all in all, the exp boost + pet reduced your time to level up by roughly 75%. You know how much that cost me? 10$ for 30 days exp boost and I think 5$ for the loot pet. And both things only were active for 30 days. That means I would have had to pay 15$ per month to be able to progress to high levels.

The Stashtabs from PoE however are only bought once. You pay your 20$ for 6 premium stash tabs and are good to go. And another 7.50$ for the currency stash tab. That's still less then most games cost today. And lets not forget that both those things can have a special price. THe price reduction isn't high, but it saves you some $. And then take a look on how many hours you will play this game. 1000 hours? I dont thin that 20$ are much for having 1000 hours of fun and lets not forget, that you get something for those 20$ in return.

All in all I think people should just buy the things and shouldn't worry about pay2win. PoE is very fair in this I think, because tashtabs are really the ONLY things that provide you a little advantage, but other then that, you can play this game for as long as you want.

I got way richer when I could list 40 tabs of items than when I had just one tab available to sell stuff i found.

Sure it's PTW how cant you see that if you put more out there you will get more bites? It's like 40 fishing poles vs 1 in the water. If you get more sales you get better gear. Better gear is an advantage.

PTW all the way. Only obtuse cant see it.

Equally obtuse think premiums are PTW though. When it's tabs themselves are PTW and there are free tools to give better than premium function to thier PTW tabs.

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goetzjam wrote:

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Casual_Ascent wrote:

3rd party tools are spyware and unsafe.

Trade tabs are for casuals and are P2W.

Just the way it is.

Stop spreading lies.

I can promise you that your PC is in far more danger from literally anything else you do on the computer then using a program like procurement or acquisition.


How about you get off your ass and support the game you play instead of bashing it every second you get?

Not true.

Who is in charge of Procurement Software? it is a 3rd Party software that uses your sensitive login information.

Is Procurement officially licensed by GGG? no its not and GGG hints at not using it and to use premium stash instead.

Lets look at Reckless Defense Jewell as a very small and basic example. Before Aim Deep created the Invincible RF juggernaut build those Jewells were dog cheap like 20c and less for a perfect roll 4% block.

After his guide they sky rocketed to 4 exalts for 1 of the 4% block rolls.

Now a guy who has a bunch of stash tabs can buy all these "junk" and as prices inflate due to new builds he automatically gets rich simply because he had extra tabs.

So I don't know why people cannot understand this basic concept, I personally don't see a big issue with it because thats how GGG makes their money. And so long as this game continues to get updated free what the heck?

Sure I don't like dealing with these snotty nose 12 year old kids who flip items all day and horde everything so they can exploit the market and the players but if this is what needs to be done for POE to continue to receive its support then so be it.

Won't bother me and I won't lose any sleep over it. All I care about is GGG putting Gore Pack or Demon King pack armor on sale.

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Aim_Deep wrote:

I got way richer when I could list 40 tabs of items than when I had just one tab available to sell stuff i found.

Sure it's PTW how cant you see that if you put more out there you will get more bites? It's like 40 fishing poles vs 1 in the water. If you get more sales you get better gear. Better gear is an advantage.

PTW all the way. Only obtuse cant see it.

Equally obtuse think premiums are PTW though. When it's tabs themselves are PTW and there are free tools to give better than premium function to thier PTW tabs.

You should really think about your definition of WIN. What do you actually WIN by selling more? In a PvP game, you could say this is pay2WIN, because you get better gear and level faster then others and easily win PvP fights because of that. But in a PvE game, there is no such thing as "winning". Everything takes longer, yes, but there are many players who completely play self-found. GGG already made it possible to buy most of the skill gems for very low currency, so you don't have to buy those at least and can try out stuff. And you can get many good items for just a chaos orb. So that's not expensive either. Only if you want to try out the really heavy cost builds you then need alot of currency. But hey, then there are like 3-4 current builds you can't do because of the lack of currency. Then just go for something else. There are extremely many builds with tankiness, good clear speed and extremely low cost. Take Earthquake Jugger for example. All you need is a decent mace and decent equipment, all you can get for 1alc or 1c per piece. Things like Mahoi Mace or Q20 gems are luxury that are not needed to be effective.

So please don't talk about pay2win if you don't even know what it exactly means. Here's the definition:

"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."

Like I said above: You can be extremely efficient even without much currency, so it doesn't make the game "largely unbalanced" and since there is no PvP, having better gear then others isn't a really big disadvantage, because people with skill still can kill atziri, while those without skill won't survive atziri, even if they pay for stash tabs.

Ace I think your problem largely stems from not knowing what people mean by pay to win. Everyone has a different defition. I don't see how having PvP content makes a game more pay to win though (that's the wallet warrior problem no, a very specific pay to win concept). Because that means you're basically in favor of selling currency because most of it only impacts you and nobody else. Well it does, it impacts the trading economy, causes even more inflation than there currently is.

My definition which includes pretty much anything that isn't cosmetic is:
The sale of anything that provides users with a clear advantage.

There are varying degrees of what is and what isn't acceptable though. I don't find stash tabs that offensive, not only because there is a workaround (multi-accounts and mules) but because GGG has to make a profit somehow. They're cheap and available. As long as you don't go nuts, you can make your experience much better on a budget of about $20 (I don't think one premium tab upgrade is enough to really make your experience that much better, but a stash tab pack on the other hand is).

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ghoulavenger wrote:

Ace I think your problem largely stems from not knowing what people mean by pay to win. Everyone has a different defition. I don't see how having PvP content makes a game more pay to win though (that's the wallet warrior problem no, a very specific pay to win concept). Because that means you're basically in favor of selling currency because most of it only impacts you and nobody else. Well it does, it impacts the trading economy, causes even more inflation than there currently is.

My definition which includes pretty much anything that isn't cosmetic is:
The sale of anything that provides users with a clear advantage.

I have 22 premium stash tabs and rarely sell anything. The shop I once made is outdated and I didn't sell things for weeks. My current currency account in prophecy HC is:

- 15 chaos orbs
- 400 chromatics
- 600 jewelers (had alot of luck with 6slot items)
- 100 fusings
- 50 alchemy orbs
- and some other orbs (no ex, mirror or devine)

As you can see, I'm not really rich. I play this game since pre-steam release and I only play Hardcore (the SC chars I have are just dead HC chars). I never managed to make alot of currency, but that's because I rarely keep and sell items. So I mostly play selffound and all my characters use items that do not cost more then 2c per piece. The additional stash tabs are only there to keep all the uniques I find. But it doesn't really provide me a big advantage.

The only good and expensive piece of equipment I ever bought was the Mahoi Mace with 5L for my dead EQ Juggernaut. But the prophecy for 5L was "self-found", so I just bought the Mahoi for 20c, which was nearly all I had at that time. Funnily enough, my EQ jugger was lvl 70+ in just 2 days and my flame totem chieftain also managed lvl 84 in about a week.

So I don't really understand how you would "win" when you would pay for stash tabs. I argument with PvP, because if PoE would be all about PvP, you would have a clear advantage when fighting against other players who didn't pay and would probably win over them just because you have better equipment (and not because of actual skill). But PvE? Then you need 1 hit more for your trash mobs. Before the Mahoi I used another unique mace I found myself (you can get that for 1alc on poe.xyz, it has lvl 20 increased AoE) and it took me 2 EQ hits to kill some enemy types. With Mahoi, it took me 1 EQ hit most of the time. Ofc this was nice, but it wasn't necessary. I was already strong enough without the Mahoi and even if you think it is needed, you can still make 20C quite easily without having to sell stuff on poe.xyz. My Jugger had 5k life, 650 life reg per second, 90% phys damage reduction and dealt alot of damage. So how can you say that the premium stash tabs are pay2win if there are many low budget builds that clearly work without alot of currency. The stash tabs and selling more stuff are just enabling you to try out more stuff, especially builds that are high-budget. You could say PoE is not P2W, it is P2E (Pay to Experiment). More currency means you can buy some juicy unique items that enable you to make all kind of interesting builds. But then again, it's not really needed to enjoy the game.

About definition:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win

This is the best rated definition and I think the most common used.