Premium Tabs are pay to win

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TriniGamer wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

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Casual_Ascent wrote:

3rd party tools are spyware and unsafe.

Trade tabs are for casuals and are P2W.

Just the way it is.

Stop spreading lies.

I can promise you that your PC is in far more danger from literally anything else you do on the computer then using a program like procurement or acquisition.


How about you get off your ass and support the game you play instead of bashing it every second you get?

Not true.

Who is in charge of Procurement Software? it is a 3rd Party software that uses your sensitive login information.

Is Procurement officially licensed by GGG? no its not and GGG hints at not using it and to use premium stash instead.

Really dude, we just established a few pages ago that none of these softwares require your login information, you can use session id\bump key instead.

So let me ask you again to stop fucking spreading lies.

bah, whatever.. white knights will white knight

and yeah, 3rd party software data management is not guaranteed by ggg... but sure.. they are on par and totally a viable explanation for a paid system... totally...

We established nothing... an exe can still do whatever it likes on your system if you are not tech savvy and if it does something, who can we complain to? Github?

Funny.

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_Emperor_ wrote:

bah, whatever.. white knights will white knight

and yeah, 3rd party software data management is not guaranteed by ggg... but sure.. they are on par and totally a viable explanation for a paid system... totally...

We established nothing... an exe can still do whatever it likes on your system if you are not tech savvy and if it does something, who can we complain to? Github?

Funny.

Do you internationally ignore previous post in a thread to look ignorant or is that unintentional?


Go to the massive threads regarding whatever software you prefer, look at the github page and verify it is the same one as the one in the thread and if you are so concerned with the security of your computer, you can sandbox the program or download the code and compile it yourself after reviewing it.

The software does literally the same thing the premium tabs do, once you spend a few min setting it up its good to go, depending on how your configuration is.

But its ok, keep posting about how it isn't safe, despite the fact that you as a player have a safe way to do it, even if you are too ignorant to realize it WHEN IT IS EXPLAINED TO YOU.

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AceNightfire wrote:

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ghoulavenger wrote:

Ace I think your problem largely stems from not knowing what people mean by pay to win. Everyone has a different defition. I don't see how having PvP content makes a game more pay to win though (that's the wallet warrior problem no, a very specific pay to win concept). Because that means you're basically in favor of selling currency because most of it only impacts you and nobody else. Well it does, it impacts the trading economy, causes even more inflation than there currently is.

My definition which includes pretty much anything that isn't cosmetic is:
The sale of anything that provides users with a clear advantage.

I have 22 premium stash tabs and rarely sell anything. The shop I once made is outdated and I didn't sell things for weeks. My current currency account in prophecy HC is:

- 15 chaos orbs
- 400 chromatics
- 600 jewelers (had alot of luck with 6slot items)
- 100 fusings
- 50 alchemy orbs
- and some other orbs (no ex, mirror or devine)

As you can see, I'm not really rich. I play this game since pre-steam release and I only play Hardcore (the SC chars I have are just dead HC chars). I never managed to make alot of currency, but that's because I rarely keep and sell items. So I mostly play selffound and all my characters use items that do not cost more then 2c per piece. The additional stash tabs are only there to keep all the uniques I find. But it doesn't really provide me a big advantage.

The only good and expensive piece of equipment I ever bought was the Mahoi Mace with 5L for my dead EQ Juggernaut. But the prophecy for 5L was "self-found", so I just bought the Mahoi for 20c, which was nearly all I had at that time. Funnily enough, my EQ jugger was lvl 70+ in just 2 days and my flame totem chieftain also managed lvl 84 in about a week.

So I don't really understand how you would "win" when you would pay for stash tabs. I argument with PvP, because if PoE would be all about PvP, you would have a clear advantage when fighting against other players who didn't pay and would probably win over them just because you have better equipment (and not because of actual skill). But PvE? Then you need 1 hit more for your trash mobs. Before the Mahoi I used another unique mace I found myself (you can get that for 1alc on poe.xyz, it has lvl 20 increased AoE) and it took me 2 EQ hits to kill some enemy types. With Mahoi, it took me 1 EQ hit most of the time. Ofc this was nice, but it wasn't necessary. I was already strong enough without the Mahoi and even if you think it is needed, you can still make 20C quite easily without having to sell stuff on poe.xyz. My Jugger had 5k life, 650 life reg per second, 90% phys damage reduction and dealt alot of damage. So how can you say that the premium stash tabs are pay2win if there are many low budget builds that clearly work without alot of currency. The stash tabs and selling more stuff are just enabling you to try out more stuff, especially builds that are high-budget. You could say PoE is not P2W, it is P2E (Pay to Experiment). More currency means you can buy some juicy unique items that enable you to make all kind of interesting builds. But then again, it's not really needed to enjoy the game.

About definition:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win

This is the best rated definition and I think the most common used.

You can list any definition you like, it won't matter. The people in this thread are not concerned with ptw, no matter what the definition, they just want free shit.

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AceNightfire wrote:

I have 22 premium stash tabs and rarely sell anything. The shop I once made is outdated and I didn't sell things for weeks. My current currency account in prophecy HC is:

Forget selling for a moment here. The stash tabs have an intrinsic value. Players that don't have stash tabs have to go through a lot more effort to make mule characters and accounts to store their stuff, or vendor everything. This includes, low level leveling gear, uniques, and other build enablers. You don't need to trade to have a significant advantage with using extra stash tabs. Heck, I have like four tabs full of maps, just maps. Try condensing that into 4 tabs total.

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AceNightfire wrote:

The additional stash tabs are only there to keep all the uniques I find. But it doesn't really provide me a big advantage.

I'm guilty of a little bit of hoarding myself, but unless they're strictly vendor trash that is a big advantage, especially in prophecy league where you can recycle trash uniques.

Look, you went through a whole lot of effort to tell me you think my definition is wrong. I don't agree with you, and I don't think we'll reconcile. I think all stash tabs are pay to win, and premiums more so. But I also don't think it is a big deal. It would be a bigger deal if we had the wallet warrior problem -- which we might if you considered RMT (but that's really dark territory, against ToS, and the PvP community is pretty small anyway).

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ghoulavenger wrote:

Forget selling for a moment here. The stash tabs have an intrinsic value. Players that don't have stash tabs have to go through a lot more effort to make mule characters and accounts to store their stuff, or vendor everything. This includes, low level leveling gear, uniques, and other build enablers. You don't need to trade to have a significant advantage with using extra stash tabs. Heck, I have like four tabs full of maps, just maps. Try condensing that into 4 tabs total.

1Come on. Low level gear or Uniques is really not needed, especially if you know the content. You can even do cruel difficulty with non-maxed resistances. I have a duelist right now that had 50 light res, 40 fire res and only cold was capped and I managed to get to act 4 in cruel. It's the same as my argumentation with EQ jugger and Mahoi: Having Mahoi is nice, but it's not necessary and same goes for low level equipment. Just take a look when a new league starts. Some players manage to get lvl 80+ in just 15 hours and those guys dont have any low level equipment either (since there is no market for that and your stash is empty). So it's not like you have to invest tons of hours if you dont have low level gear. I also managed to get my flame totem marauder to lvl 70+ in HC prophecy within 3 days without any gear.

And lets not forget that you can buy most of those "build enablers" and leveling gear for a small amount of currency. 80% of the uniques go for 1alc or 1chaos and low level gear is also pretty cheap.

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ghoulavenger wrote:

I'm guilty of a little bit of hoarding myself, but unless they're strictly vendor trash that is a big advantage, especially in prophecy league where you can recycle trash uniques.

I did this prophecy now 5 times and I never got anything good out of it. The best was a lvl 48 unique, but this is also only 1c worth. So I dont think the stash tabs are a big advantage here.

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ghoulavenger wrote:

Look, you went through a whole lot of effort to tell me you think my definition is wrong. I don't agree with you, and I don't think we'll reconcile. I think all stash tabs are pay to win, and premiums more so. But I also don't think it is a big deal. It would be a bigger deal if we had the wallet warrior problem -- which we might if you considered RMT (but that's really dark territory, against ToS, and the PvP community is pretty small anyway).

It's like you said: Stashtabs are not a big deal and if they are not a big deal, why use a strong term like p2w for it? People usually associate korean grinders with p2w and those games are almost impossible to play without paying for it. That's why I think the term p2w should be used when the game is unplayable without the pay-content. In PvP-based games that would mean that you can't beat someone who paid for the game. Or in grinder games, that you can't level up or find items efficiently without the content that costs money. The stash tabs however make your life in PoE just easier, but not in a way that you can't play without them. I gave enough examples that show that you can play almost every build without having to sell alot of stuff and leveling in low level areas shouldn't be a problem. Just get yourself a coral amulet with +4 life reg and additional +2 life reg affix and you are pretty much damage immune until mid act 2 and then get yourself a good weapon for an alc and that's it. Everything else is luxury that is nice, but not necessary.

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AceNightfire wrote:

It's like you said: Stashtabs are not a big deal and if they are not a big deal, why use a strong term like p2w for it?

Because it is the most fitting definition for what it is. Most things can be justified as paying for convenience, without going so far as to block your progress in the game (e.g. if they started selling currency and turned drop rates down). Simple is always best.

Support GGG! buy weapon effects! wait, why not? oh right tabs are on sale right now for the same price...

guys this argument is pointless: tabs ARE p2w. stop white-knighting out of yer asses.

and there is a thread here suggesting they take this the whole crap-iPhone-app way and start selling pre-leveled characters... as a serious suggestion believe it or not.
I couldn't.

that's not even a slippery slope. that's free fall at 120 mph.

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ghoulavenger wrote:

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AceNightfire wrote:

It's like you said: Stashtabs are not a big deal and if they are not a big deal, why use a strong term like p2w for it?

Because it is the most fitting definition for what it is. Most things can be justified as paying for convenience, without going so far as to block your progress in the game (e.g. if they started selling currency and turned drop rates down). Simple is always best.

It isn't. Pay2Win means you need to pay to win in the game. You can easily win in this game without paying. The best example I gave is the fresh start of a new (hardcore) league. People manage to get lvl 80+ in just 15 hours without having a full stash of items or having bought anything. That clearly shows that you can easily get to high levels without paying for the game, which I consider as a win in a PvE game.

That's why I think the term p2w is just to strong and is assicoiated with TO negative thoughts to really fit in this case. You could say it was used here because it's a nice click-bait. Use the strongest negative term in a topic and it will convince people to click on it. But if you take a look at the facts, you dont need 20 stash tabs to progress in this game.

So it may look simple to use p2w, but it isn't that simple, since this term tries to convince other players that GGG tries to rip-off people (which is clearly not the case) and based on that reasoning players demand that GGG should give additional stash tabs. Don't underestimate the psychological effect that those terms can have. It's common practice in (social) media: If you want to go against a certain public person, use strong terms with negative associations and people will start talking negatively about that person. And the same happens with game developers all the time, because if someone is not happy with certain things (like content), they try to convince as many people as possible and it always creates more pressure when the people are adjusted negatively towards the developer, because it influences the image of the developer.

All in all: The stashtabs are at most Quality for Life and makes things here and there a little bit easier. So I understand why people want some free stash tabs and I already said that I wouldn't mind if they give one or two additional ones for those who don't want to or can't buy stash tabs, but that doesn't mean I have to be in favour for everything that is said in this thread, like that stash tabs are pay2win.

Here is a good example btw what I mean with "negative terms associated with negative thoughts" (see bold text):

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johnKeys wrote:

guys this argument is pointless: tabs ARE p2w. stop white-knighting out of yer asses.

This guy is clearly in favour for additional stash tabs. So he tries to convince others that GGG is ripping-off people (need to buy stash tabs -> can't buy cosmetics). To strenghten his argument, he uses p2w as a term, because it is associated with the worst MMO games out there and this sets the mood of other players to think PoE is in that same category (worst MMORPGs are P2w = PoE is also p2w = PoE is a rip-off game). And to weaken the arguments of those who think that this isn't p2w, he says that those guys are white-knights (white-knights: People who defend something even if it doesn't make sense). The aim of this is to make us (including me) look like illogical people who defend something without good reasoning.

As you can see, people use (mostly subconsciously) psychological tactics all the time. That's how we work and that's why the media or politicans do the same. It convinces people without having real facts.

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AceNightfire wrote:

It isn't. Pay2Win means you need to pay to win in the game.

Let me stop you right here. There are a ridiculous number of definitions of pay to win. It's absolutely fine if you say something like "here is my personal definition of pay to win, please use it to interpret my arguments." It's absolutely not fine if you say "here is my personal definition of pay to win, which I will use to interpret your arguments even though we're talking about different things, thereby proving you wrong."

Your definition of pay to win and the person you're responding to's definition of pay to win are not the same. You using a different definition doesn't mean they're wrong. Instead of misrepresenting their arguments, you should respond to them in the context in which they're given. If you don't understand the exact context in which they've given their arguments because they didn't define their terms clearly enough or at all, ask them to clarify.

This conversation will go nowhere if people are talking past each other.