Premium Tabs are pay to win
" Let me stop you right here. There are a ridiculous number of definitions of pay to win. It's absolutely fine if you say something like "here is my personal definition of pay to win, please use it to interpret my arguments." It's absolutely not fine if you say "here is my personal definition of pay to win, which I will use to interpret your arguments even though we're talking about different things, thereby proving you wrong." Your definition of pay to win and the person you're responding to's definition of pay to win are not the same. You using a different definition doesn't mean they're wrong. Instead of misrepresenting their arguments, you should respond to them in the context in which they're given. If you don't understand the exact context in which they've given their arguments because they didn't define their terms clearly enough or at all, ask them to clarify. This conversation will go nowhere if people are talking past each other. | |
" The problem is, that if you want to have a healthy conversation, you should avoid by all means to use strong negative terms. P2W is clearly such a term. Like you said, everyone has their "own" definition, but lets not forget that most people associate it with korean grinder MMORPGs or games that went from p2p to p2w, which resulted in heavy image damage for those developers. Furthermore, this term was used in the topics title and no one can know the context of this word until they have read the starter post - or better: the whole thread - which will rarely be done by anyone joining the conversation, especially reading the whole thread. That's another reason why you should never use such terms. Especially, the title says: "Premium Tabs are pay to win". It doesn't give any room for definitions. If your logic applies here and everyone has their own definition, the title is already bad worded, because for me they aren't p2w and therefore the title can offend people like me who have a different definition of it. Luckily I'm no idiot who comes in like "Omfg you guys suck, stash tabs aren't p2w, gtfo". If I would start my conversation that way, the thread would derail and we would probably get a warning from a mod in the end, without discussing the topic at all in a serious manner. The OP said that having no premium stash tabs cuts someone off from trading. You can use a 3rd party programm for that, you can create a thread manually or use the trade chat. All are viable options and worked for years until now. So the prem tabs are, like I said, Quality for Life. It makes things easier, a little bit faster, but saying you can't trade without them is just wrong. And that you don't need currency or low level gear is proven by the fact, that people manage to get high lvl within the first day at the start of a new league without any bought (leveling or build enabling) gear. So what stands to call Premium Tabs pay2win? What kind of p2w definition do we need to be able to use the term p2w in this case? Like I said above, people use it as a psychological click-bait and to create a negative mood towards GGG, whichI think is just wrong and not fair. Last edited by AceNightfire on Jul 2, 2016, 4:50:36 AM
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"lets put aside it is p2w or not. GGG stance on Asian region is still a major problem. Hiding SG gateway = Check (why hide?) Only 1 Asian server = Check Steam region block = check (means cant use your steam wallet even if you linked your steam acc) (I dont know why they should block this, why cant let players pick between Official vs Garena) Seriously if they really want player support them, flexibility ways of accepting payment is what they should start doing first. Last edited by Darkkrows on Jul 2, 2016, 6:12:30 AM
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" Hey, this guy gets it. This is why I said we wouldn't reconcile. " I provided the definition I was using because people thought I was outright bashing things. I'm fine with the way things are. I agree pay to win has a negative connotation to it, because of pure greed here, but if people are going to bandy about the terms and then squabble about them they need a meaningful definitnion to work from. Otherwise it is just a mudslinging contest. " That is why there is a lot of repetition in threads sadly, but you can't fault the OP for that. If people don't want to read what is posted it isn't his fault. This would happen even if he hadn't used the term pay to win. " Actually I think the OP did a smart thing there. Flashy titles get people to read posts. In fact I think attacking the term rather than attacking the argument is far more damaging to the thread integrity than using the term itself. Congratulations, you've obfuscated the thread. " The OP can defend his own arguments, or attempt to. I provided you with a meaningful definition but you discarded it because you didn't like it. Last edited by ghoulavenger on Jul 2, 2016, 8:22:47 AM
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" If you agree that it has a negative connotation to it and that everyone has their own definition, why should we use such terms in the first place? These terms rarely help to provide a healthy discussion (see lab discussion. 160 pages full of flame and words with negative connotation). I'm just saying we shouldn't use words that don't have a clear definition and have bad associations " I'm not so sure about that. In my experience, if someone starts with a polite attitude and doesn't use words with strong associations, the discussion starts more healthy. Don't get me wrong: Also words with strong positive associations aren't good. Both extremes are not healthy. Just imagine I would write something like this "GGG is the best developer in the world and is the most generous developer out there when it comes to developing a free2play game". Words like "best" and "generous" usually provokes people who are against GGGs free2play policy and you can guess how their attitude towards me will be. Again: I'm just saying we shouldn't use words that don't have a clear definition and have bad associations " 1. I was in favour for additional stash tabs in another thread. There the OP already got my +. Take a look at this thread: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1691988/page/5 The OP in this thread didn't argument with terms like p2w. In the whole thread, the term was used much less. I also think the discussion was way more productive and was discussed in a serious manner (except some few peole). If you try to attract people with flashy titles, expect people to counter the arguments with flashy words. You can't expect to use such extreme methods and everyone stays silent. 2. I provided strong arguments why GGG does not need to give additional free stash tabs and why you can't call something pay2win, when you practically can have the same functions with a 3rd party programm (which worked for years by now without any accidents). If such a term doesn't add anything positive to a discussion, it should just be avoided in the first place. 3. I think the discussion was already pretty much over when I joined. We heard both sides: Those who say 3rd party programm provides the same benefits as premium stash tabs and those who say, that you can't trust a 3rd party programm. Everything else was all about "p2w". Go to page 6 and (or any other page except page 4) and type in the search bar "win". The term is used more then 20 times on page 6... That was before I joined. The term didn't help at all, because everyone was right and wrong at the same time because of the different definitions. That's why I tried to provide even stronger arguments that go along with most of all the p2w definitions here. " Can you post it again? Then I try my best to go along with it without "discarding it". ^^ |
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" Lol, lamest definition of P2W ever. The game is you give me $5. *pays $5* You win! | |
" Words are just words. If I avoided every word that had a negative connotation to it, I wouldn't be saying much at all. " Pay to win is the business model where money is exchanged for a clear advantage. |
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" True and people like us can have a normal conversation even using such terms, because we don't overrate them and know that there are different definitions. But you and me also know, that not everyone is so calm and thoughtful about these things. Many people are easily triggered when using such words and when those people get provoked and start to post, the thread ends in a huge flame war. That's why I think we shouldn't use those words to prevent flaming. Because I don't think GGG will keep reading in a thread where people flame each other and it also doesn't look like we are seriously discussing the matter. " So since you can easily set up a public shop with a 3rd party programm (which worked for years without any accident) or doing it manually, you would agree that premium stash tabs are not really an advantage? If you think 3rd party programs are unsafe, that's ok and if you think setting up a shop manually is to much work, that's also ok. But it's not like the players can't set up a shop without premium stash tabs. Therefore I wouldn't call it a clear advantage. It's more like quality for life, because you have this shop feature then in your game. Last edited by AceNightfire on Jul 2, 2016, 4:02:48 PM
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Premium tabs save me 5 minutes a league. That's how long it took me to make a shop thread and set acquisition up for the new league. That's 20 minutes a year. Heck, that's one extra crossword puzzle while sitting in the bathroom. If that ain't winning, I don't know what is.
Also, when complaining that using 3rd party tools is somehow losing, think about how people even know what's in all those p2w public tabs. Guild Leader The Amazon Basin <BASIN>
Play Nice and Show Some Class www.theamazonbasin.com | |
" I think third party programs present many arguments (mostly how the trade system needs to be overhauled entirely), but the nature of pay to win itself is not one of them. It isn't actually part of the game. If you start considering third party programs as "pay to win" because you have to pay for them, you might also start considering things like RMT (I've seen arguments that suggest all aRPGs are pay to win because of RMT) and bots. What I would use the third party programs for, in this argument, is the fact that GGG hasn't disallowed the forum scrapers (which would render these programs ineffective -- granted, it would render all forum based trading ineffective too) and has supported the third party programs by creating session keys (which helps alleviate some of the security risk). This means they want there to be a viable alternative, it also means that they probably don't want to design their own indexer (like poe.trade). Ironically, premium tab trading couldn't exist without an indexer and the only indexers are third party ones (anybody can make an indexer, but I only know of poe.trade). Compared to versus standard forum posts (almost impossible to find anything useful by browsing the shop forums), most people would use the indexer anyway so that may be a moot point. So, lets see, the other option is handling your forum post by hand? That takes a lot of work and has some advantages and disadvantages. Premium tabs are much better for trading in general because of account verification and speed of listing (to indexers), but they are limited to the tabs themselves while the forum posts are not. So the argument becomes potential volume (non premium tabs and character mules especially) versus ability to find things. On the whole, I'd rather be able to find things. So I think there is significant enough advantage in premium tabs to call them pay to win. Granted I think that just having extra stash tabs is a much more significant advantage, than the premium tab upgrade. |
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