General Discussion - Small vocal minority? - Forum

i dont buy that vocal minority bullshit none of my friendlist is in lab everytime i log in labrace numbers 2 ppl hc 12 ppl phc 39 psc would be awesome if this game had only 100 player you have 26 pages with 70% labhate each page thats never a small minority so stop using that argument https://poe-ssf.herokuapp.com/. Join the fun. SSF HC Legacy Witch Lvl 53 Last edited by ventiman on May 25, 2016, 12:27:17 PM	Posted by ventiman on May 25, 2016, 12:24:20 PM Quote this Post
" lagwin1980 wrote: " _Emperor_ wrote: Chris said that the "lab haters" are a small vocal minority and that its fine to have divisive content inside ones game. Its okay to have content that we can choose not to do, like for example vaal areas. We can choose to skip them completely and we still have few ways to progress. We cant skip the lab. Well, we can, if we are sadists who at the same time hate OP buffs and have a need to miss out on all the cool names and lore tidbits that come with ascendancy. Gating content is bad, but we can take it. Gating character progression behind something that you term "divisive" is a sure way to chop your playerbase in smaller pieces. Chris, to my eyes, came off as arrogant in that podcast. Yes, GGG has the data, and they can claim that "only a small vocal minority hates the lab". This "vocal minority" is awesome when it comes to promoting the game. Does he really think that people who praise the game constantly up to the labyrinth, and the people who speak out against the lab are two separate entities? Vocal minorities tend to stick around, and pissing on them is a bad business policy which he will understand after this "prophecy" nonsense comes to a halt. This romantic notion about "groups of players profiting on the lab with joined effort" and the similar tropes will be the death of this game. 99% of us are not VOC and his gang. Most of us play this game as an escape from the tedium of everyday routine. Chasing levers, dodging traps and losing our mind on random enchants is not the way to go about it. And now, we will push "payloads" in the lab. What is this? Soul Reaver? And we have this Navani or whatever her name is acting like Moebius from Reaver games. Prince of persia meets soul reaver. This is going to work out magnificently. Okay, if i push this lever, and push that box there while dodging these traps i will finally get my ascendany point. that comes so late in the game where MOST of people stop with that character. And if you continue its to push 100 or to do MF. none of that will be done in the lab. "you think you do, but you dont" - What is it with these devs? I played parendus with 3+ chars, and all 3 of them were respecced at some point completely. Out of boredom. I did lab only for the 4 points on all of those chars. Never did the trials in merc and i will never do them. IF that stops me from playing, ill stop. What will come in the next expansion i wonder. Content that 50% of the players hate, but you cant level beyond level 25 if you dont do it. Great times, great. I would like to spark a discussion that handles the GGG point of view on this, and to debate the merits of "character progression rewards" that come late in the game. TL DR, Chris was arrogant in the podcast, imo. Vocal minority is important everywhere on the planet in every endeavor. Dismissing criticism by invoking the "vocal minority" clause leads to trouble. Dont gate crucial progression by self proclaimed "divisive content". Lab is good if you move AC out. Trials can reward AC, everything else stays the same. Cheerio The thing is that GGG have numbers to back up their claims, if it was truly as bad as the vocal minority say it is then they wouldn't be a minority would they? There is no arrogance about this claim, only those that hate the lab would even conceive that there was...and guess what (you are the first post claiming such) The thing is GGG don't actually know the numbers. they know how many people run the lab, and how many run it regularly on the same character. But they don't know the why of that. I would guess that the majority of people that run the lab are simply doing for the skill points and will never run it again on that character. There are then the people that run it trying to get certain enchants, and there are then those that run for profit, or the race. We and GGG have no way of knowing how many of those dislike it but run it anyway because either skill or enchants are gated behind it. If arrogance is perceived in something then it exists. GGG are basically concluding that because people run the lab and don't complain about it they like it without actually knowing whther or not that is the case. I personally dislike the lab but have never been particularly vocal about it, according to GGG I probably am counted as one who loves it because I have run it multiple times to get my ascendancy points.	Posted by markww on May 25, 2016, 12:27:24 PM Quote this Post
What if there were points gated behind a map that was a First Person Shooter? What if there were points gated behind an Exile tennis match? A Chess match? Found thru fishing? Beyond the fact that the Lab just sucks in general, like the above things- it has no place in an ARPG. Based on posts here, on reddit, and in game I can easily come to the conclusion that the people who enjoy Lab are in fact the vocal minority. The most common reactions to lab are: A) Absolute hate B) begrudging acceptance due to the the rewards C) Like ripping a bandage, get it over with quickly and forget about it. Ofc Chris will never come off his stance Lab is great, it had to be a huge development cost and time to put all these new mechanics in place. So we're probly stuck with it now. Last edited by comradespike on May 25, 2016, 12:33:52 PM	Posted by comradespike on May 25, 2016, 12:33:31 PM Quote this Post
Allow me to shine a different light on the Ascendancy points issue, would you? Thematically and story-wise, there was this fellow Izaro. Judging by his quotes and attached story, a pretty cool emperor and things only went downhill after his passing. Now, he grants you the power of ascendancy after completing difficult trials, blah de dah. First guy to complete it (Chitus Perandus) became The Emperor. Taking the ascendancy points out of it would destroy the entire theme, the story, all of it! It would just create another "go here grab loot oh also some enchant thing whatever" side area instead of the epic quest, the glorious struggle of ascendance. Personally, I think this part of Wraeclast lore is one of the most cohesive and inspiring out of everything GGG has created. Would be sad to see it go, just because hating on the Lab is apparently cool on the forums.	Posted by eemmbbeerr on May 25, 2016, 12:39:03 PM Quote this Post
" diablofdb wrote: I enjoy the lab. It breaks the monotony of the game as it this something vastly different from the rest of the game. I agree even though i kinda suck at it....make it fucking harder Ancestral Bond. It's a thing that does stuff. -Vipermagi He who controls the pants controls the galaxy. - Rick & Morty S3E1	Posted by lagwin1980 on May 25, 2016, 12:58:12 PM Quote this Post
GGG sees that people are running it rather they hate it or like it. They see these numbers and think " People like to run the Lab..Yeah!!!" Fact, when you gate things like points or anything that can improve your character, people are going to do it. Its not a hate/love thing at all. Its their way of blowing bs up their own ass in thinking people want to run it without thinking why people are running it. Enchants worse RNG ever The lab is not hard it is just really boring. It is not my kind of fun and I understand others thinks the lab is the best thing that ever happened to this game. The only way for the "Small Vocal Minority" to be heard seems to be if you make a big enough cry on Reddit.... GGG may hear you. Sad.	Posted by BestRain on May 25, 2016, 12:59:50 PM Quote this Post
" ventiman wrote: i dont buy that vocal minority bullshit none of my friendlist is in lab everytime i log in labrace numbers 2 ppl hc 12 ppl phc 39 psc would be awesome if this game had only 100 player you have 26 pages with 70% labhate each page thats never a small minority so stop using that argument Where are you getting the statistics that you're using to draw this conclusion? What does people racing the labyrinth have to do with anything? Which 26 pages are you referring to exactly? How would the percentage of those being "labhate[SIC]" mean that it's not a small very vocal minority posting often about it?	Posted by DurianMcgregor on May 25, 2016, 1:02:24 PM Quote this Post
" DurianMcgregor wrote: " ventiman wrote: i dont buy that vocal minority bullshit none of my friendlist is in lab everytime i log in labrace numbers 2 ppl hc 12 ppl phc 39 psc would be awesome if this game had only 100 player you have 26 pages with 70% labhate each page thats never a small minority so stop using that argument Where are you getting the statistics that you're using to draw this conclusion? What does people racing the labyrinth have to do with anything? Which 26 pages are you referring to exactly? How would the percentage of those being "labhate[SIC]" mean that it's not a small very vocal minority posting often about it? They're just making stuff up and pretending that stuff which does not support their claim, actually does support their claim. Typical tactics when you have nothing. Lab is fun. I have no interest in grinding it, just like I have no interest in grinding any zone. It fits in nicely with the rest of the game.	Posted by Qiox on May 25, 2016, 1:10:25 PM Quote this Post
Not to defend his whole post, but the idea is that even if GGG did post numbers, it would still be very hard to parse out those who actually liked the lab as a core experience should you take the top end rewards out of it. With the daily race leaderboard example - let's say people participating in these races constitute 50% of all Labyrinths run. Let's also say that these racers neither like, nor dislike the lab, but they are only running it for the sake of competition and for a shot at the unique jewel. These are people who you or I would not classify as liking the core mechanics of the lab. But if GGG were to publish the numbers on the topic, and say 1,000,000 Lab runs are done each day, look how popular it is! That 'popularity' is hollow as it relates to the lab being well designed and fun - because in this example, half of its 'popularity' is actually just people interested in competition - people who would race under any rule set just because they like racing and competition. The numbers I used are obviously exaggerated, but that's just one example of a player psychology profile among many that illustrate how hard it is to take the real numbers, whatever they are, and draw a conclusion that finishes with 'and that proves the Lab is popular/good/fun'.	Posted by innervation on May 25, 2016, 1:10:59 PM Quote this Post
Raises +40 flameshield If you're complaining about lab because of disconnect, go complain to your ISP because that's what's causing it most of the time (or secure your connection cause someone is hijacking your wifi). If you're complaining about lab because your ES or hybrid, that's legitimate and it's going to be fixed. If you're complaining because you just don't like it in general, there people who offer lab service, some people even do it for free. (protip: you do NOT need to be in the room with Izaro) If you're complaining about it because you just suck in general...you might need to find a new game. Or spend some time learning the ropes. Last edited by Megatyrant on May 25, 2016, 1:19:03 PM	Posted by Megatyrant on May 25, 2016, 1:13:34 PM Quote this Post