Small vocal minority?

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I_NO wrote:

Yes.

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Most of us play this game as an escape from the tedium of everyday routine.
Chasing levers, dodging traps and losing our mind on random enchants is not the way to go about it.

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_Emperor_ wrote:

Chris was arrogant in the podcast, imo.
Vocal minority is important everywhere on the planet in every endeavor.
Dismissing criticism by invoking the "vocal minority" clause leads to trouble.
Dont gate crucial progression by self proclaimed "divisive content".
Lab is good if you move AC out. Trials can reward AC, everything else stays the same.
Cheerio

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_Emperor_ wrote:

What will come in the next expansion i wonder. Content that 50% of the players hate, but you cant level beyond level 25 if you dont do it. Great times, great.

I would like to spark a discussion that handles the GGG point of view on this, and to debate the merits of "character progression rewards" that come late in the game.

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Mythabril wrote:

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innervation wrote:

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I_NO wrote:

Eh Lab is fine it makes your char RIDICULOUSLY OP and if you can't do it in merc well then that's just a play problem.

Would you say Lab is fine if every Skill Tree Keystone were gated behind the Lab too? Vaal Pact, Chaos Innoculation, RT, IR, US, all of them.

All game progress is gated behind playing the game. What an irrelevant argument.

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

Whether or not one agrees with the lab I do agree that chris came off a little arrogant and dismissive of the player's concerns. If they would just swallow their pride and remove the 6 points from the non-map labs everyone would win - people who hate the lab could then ignore it and people who enjoy running the lab past getting the points don't care.

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Regulator wrote:

"lot of the community dont like the labyrinth, this is a thing that i hear. While the people are vocal who dont like it, it is only a small portion of the players, many are happy to run through it as an interesting thing in the game, many people really hate it. This to me is not the end of the world. Its ok to have divisive content in the game, we dont want to water stuff down until everyone is "i guess ok" with it."

If you pay attention he says small portion, then goes on saying many like to run it and then many hate it. The only reasonable explanation is that the vocal group is a part of the people who hate it (a subgroup of the haters in other words) either that or he just contradicted himself in the same paragraph.

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_Emperor_ wrote:

Chris said that the "lab haters" are a small vocal minority and that its fine to have divisive content inside ones game.

Its okay to have content that we can choose not to do, like for example vaal areas.
We can choose to skip them completely and we still have few ways to progress.

We cant skip the lab.
Well, we can, if we are sadists who at the same time hate OP buffs and have a need to miss out on all the cool names and lore tidbits that come with ascendancy.

Gating content is bad, but we can take it.
Gating character progression behind something that you term "divisive" is a sure way to chop your playerbase in smaller pieces.

Chris, to my eyes, came off as arrogant in that podcast.
Yes, GGG has the data, and they can claim that "only a small vocal minority hates the lab".

This "vocal minority" is awesome when it comes to promoting the game. Does he really think that people who praise the game constantly up to the labyrinth, and the people who speak out against the lab are two separate entities?

Vocal minorities tend to stick around, and pissing on them is a bad business policy which he will understand after this "prophecy" nonsense comes to a halt.

This romantic notion about "groups of players profiting on the lab with joined effort" and the similar tropes will be the death of this game. 99% of us are not VOC and his gang.
Most of us play this game as an escape from the tedium of everyday routine.
Chasing levers, dodging traps and losing our mind on random enchants is not the way to go about it.
And now, we will push "payloads" in the lab. What is this? Soul Reaver?

And we have this Navani or whatever her name is acting like Moebius from Reaver games. Prince of persia meets soul reaver. This is going to work out magnificently.

Okay, if i push this lever, and push that box there while dodging these traps i will finally get my ascendany point. that comes so late in the game where MOST of people stop with that character. And if you continue its to push 100 or to do MF. none of that will be done in the lab.


"you think you do, but you dont" - What is it with these devs?

I played parendus with 3+ chars, and all 3 of them were respecced at some point completely. Out of boredom. I did lab only for the 4 points on all of those chars. Never did the trials in merc and i will never do them. IF that stops me from playing, ill stop.

What will come in the next expansion i wonder. Content that 50% of the players hate, but you cant level beyond level 25 if you dont do it. Great times, great.

I would like to spark a discussion that handles the GGG point of view on this, and to debate the merits of "character progression rewards" that come late in the game.

TL DR,
Chris was arrogant in the podcast, imo.
Vocal minority is important everywhere on the planet in every endeavor.
Dismissing criticism by invoking the "vocal minority" clause leads to trouble.
Dont gate crucial progression by self proclaimed "divisive content".
Lab is good if you move AC out. Trials can reward AC, everything else stays the same.
Cheerio

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Aethroz wrote:

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_Emperor_ wrote:

Chris was arrogant in the podcast, imo.
Vocal minority is important everywhere on the planet in every endeavor.
Dismissing criticism by invoking the "vocal minority" clause leads to trouble.
Dont gate crucial progression by self proclaimed "divisive content".
Lab is good if you move AC out. Trials can reward AC, everything else stays the same.
Cheerio

Personally, I love the lab. I, and my guildies, viewed it as a sort of mini-game or game within a game. The ascendency trials spread out were fun and broke up what can be a monotonous time leveling up a toon. I never found any of the traps too hard, and I chose to run most of them through(as opposed to Lightning Warp/Whirling Blades), after my initial completion.
If you use Lightning warp and Whirling Blades, Labyrinth traps are menial trivialities. Staunching pots are your friend as well. Lab is NOT that hard.

Non-personally, GGG is doing well by making Lab faux-mandatory.
You don't HAVE to get an Ascendency to play a good toon. Hell, nobody had ascendency 4 months ago(haha).
They are a bonus for completing a fun side mission in the game.

I agree that putting down the most vocal of players is a bad idea, but I respect GGG for not following the vocal minority. I also don't think Chris was arrogant, he was simply factual and quick and that can sometimes appear arrogant to those who don't agree.



Near the bottom, you say

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_Emperor_ wrote:

What will come in the next expansion i wonder. Content that 50% of the players hate, but you cant level beyond level 25 if you dont do it. Great times, great.

I would like to spark a discussion that handles the GGG point of view on this, and to debate the merits of "character progression rewards" that come late in the game.

Can you please clarify what you mean here? I'm not sure if you don't like that it comes too late in the game, or if you don't like that you can't progress without it, which seem to counter each other.

I have a level 81 toon that hasn't gotten around to Merc Lab yet. She is doing fine in maps, so she can progress without the points, Lab isn't stopping her.
However, if I did do Merc Lab, it would be of huge benefit to the build, which does merit me running it.
Both sides are there, and Lab isn't a detriment to either.