Game needs Eternals back (and here's why) |Petition|

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

]That wouldn't be much better than removing Mirrors completely. The trade value of two such mirrored items would still be less than (best case scenario: only slightly less than) the average cost to craft the original + 1 mirror. You'd still have high end crafting discouraged.

So what? What is the benefit of high-end crafting for the community? None. The only real benefit is for people who can craft mirror-worthy gear. And has been for a long time.

Honestly, the "mirror locks both" is the best suggestion I have heard so far. It even removes the problem of existing mirrors. The only thing is that Eternals would have to appear reasonably often. People will use them if they are around, and if no one is using them, their prices will drop until someone is using them.

Right now, the whole thing is in a really shitty state. I mean, does anyone use Mirrors in temp leagues? Probably not, because in std you can get much better items cloned with them. The owners of the non-mirrored but mirror-worthy items get even more rich, and Eternals are slowly running out. That is a really, well, pretty damn mediocre situation.

If you are not already really filthy rich, you are not discouraged from top-end crafting, you simply cannot do it at all.

Eternal drops (if re-introduced) would have to be buffed though, to the point where like 1 Eternal drops for 5 Exalts or so.

Anti-signs.

Eternal orbs are dumb.
Mirrors are dumb.

One thing I agree on, there should be other currency orbs that aid crafting. When there were suggestions for ideas on a new orb, one that exchanged mods from one base item to another one I thought was one of the better suggestions as there were many situations where it would be mid upgrade orb for want of a better base item stats or near end game you 6 linked another high level base item so you don't brick current item you're using and swap mods onto item. There were caveats in usage regarding ilvl but not getting into that...

Too bad mirrors don't account bound or corrupt on use. Game doesn't need eternals. It just needs better reasons to actually use orbs on items instead of using them to buy stuff. Master crafting could also be improved. When you just sit on hundreds of chaos orbs and master crafting life only ever eats into your supply when you personally recall rolling 20+ so orbs items in closed beta to get mid-ish level gear, which probably wouldn't be necessary if exalts weren't as rare as they are now. Exalted orbs already has a ticketed price based on it rarity ingrained on us, which increasing it availability to uncommon would just bother the crap out of investors people.

Mirrors are the lottery ticket of PoE. Removing them makes the ones currently existing into the heaviest pixels of gold. Soul bound/account bound is disliked by the developers even tho' I always feel that it can just fix things really easily. Hell, I even thought Divination cards could actually have reasonable drops rates if they were account bound and you had a nice allocated album in menu so you could look at the artwork.

Also additionally, just because I say both of Eternals and Mirrors are dumb, I don't doubt the idea of something like Eternals or something like Mirrors existing in the game, just not what we had/got.

Edit: NinjaScrotes.

The difference between the mirror worthy weapons and average weapons is massive, massive. We're talking 2-3x+ the base damage of a decently good rare. The difference is even greater for hard to roll rares like physical damage wands.

How is GGG supposed to balance the game when high level item quality variance is so huge?

Eternals do not solve the problem. In fact they helped create it by making these BIS mirrors achievable. I suppose GGG could add another set of weapon bases to the game that are even better, but for that to have any impact the legacy supply of eternals would need to be inadequate. Either way, moving from a monopoly to perhaps 10 suppliers is not much of an improvement. Eternals (and mirrors) would still be overly wealth/RMT restricted. For top items you want to target accessibility at the upper 10%, not the upper 0.00001%

Rather than eternals, the overwhelming majority of players would be better off with either:

a) very common mirrors, so it's trivial to mirror items (new entrants to mirror service would be able to offer very good (but not BIS) mixed T1/T2/T3 rares for a much lower mirror fee, enabling them to generate wealth to eventually work toward BIS crafts if they want to compete in that way).

b) much lower quality variance between BIS rares and good rares (and GGG can combine increased item quality with decreased quantity to reduce the amount of currency being generated from vendor recipes, as well as encourage more players to consume currency for crafting, since with higher item quality the chance for an acceptable crafting outcome will be greater. Some ways, just examples, to improve item quality would be to have higher tier affix biases for higher ilvls, biases for synergistic affixes or simply biases against contrary affixes, fewer tiers, smaller differences between tiers, and/or remove diluting/deliberately bad affixes from the affix pool).

Both of these options would inevitably narrow the gap between players with BIS mirrors and good rares. The reduced item quality variance amongst players will allow GGG to provide better game balance, and likely more satisfying gameplay since challenge will be better tailored. Additionally, by increasing supply (option a) or reducing demand (option b), the ridiculous cost of mirrors will go down. Oh, and as a bonus, with either option we'd actually get to see players use mirrors in 3 month leagues.

Of course there is always option c): offline mode, moddable, separate saves from GGG servers.

"

raxleberne wrote:

I do not understand logic behind removing of eternals either. What was the point of this?

To help the standard people in most cases but it didn't really do anything Skalpo and most of his organization probably still have like 50+ tabs full of eternals still.

Eternals in TEMP leagues / mirrors wasn't an issue like it's very rare for people to mirror stuff. Which is the awful part this entire purpose of removing the eternal was to lets say solitify the economy in standard but the damage has been done it's already still overflowing while the top tier traders still control, so in reality nothing really changed. All this did was screw temp leagues basically.

With that being said there's no issue with mirror worthy gear like if you don't have the coin for it move on, It's not like you need it basically I mean once more it's stupid to you know make a big deal out of it.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

"

Crackmonster wrote:

I think you underestimate how willing people are to craft.

You will not break the economy or people's willingness to craft by removing mirrors.

I didn't mean that it would be utterly eradicated, just greatly diminished. And I don't underestimate it, I know a lot of people craft in certain situations despite it being much cheaper to simply trade. Just a suboptimal, and therefore an increasingly minority option.

I think what you underestimate is a seller's motivation to price their items at prices that sell. Which means: less than the perceived crafting cost.

The whole gap between tradeable rares and mirrored rares is an interesting phenomenon. To a large extent mirror service providers are creating this themselves, by keeping mirror service prices low. This is basically a form of market Manipulation, since it greatly increases the cost of attempting to dethrone these mirror items and failing - a failed, but still pretty awesome, product of a mirror-worthy attempt will end up having about the same price as a vastly inferior item. Really, if you think about it, it's not a gap, it is a surprising lack of a gap in pricing.

According to you the willingness of people to craft will be greatly diminished. For what you say to be true people must stockpile rather than craft. I believe that is the opposite of the way of the way it really is. First in short leagues don't expect 600ex or more back in mirror fees per item, so very little mirror level crafting is done there. Second, in standard, exactly because of mirrors, more stockpiling is done rather than crafting, and many item types are now dead to crafting since a near perfect one exists, and it only gets worse from here on.

If mirrors are removed, the most cost efficient way to get top rares is crafting. Drops or yolo exalts do very rarely come as seen when eternals were first introduced, but with eternals the amount of high-end items available and their average max power increased - it is a path of lesser resistance to high end items. And yes, people tried all the time to get the best items before the days of eternals, that's what you burned currency on if you wanted to be the top dawg, but without eternals it was pretty much impossible which is why 6t1 weren't abound before eternals came.

Example of a super lucky yolo from before eternal days:



Yoloed mana and lightning resist, this was back when more mana = more auras, this was the best caster head for a build needed as much mana as possible that i had seen at the time it was created.

The mirror itself means that once someone has created a top thing, there is no more motivation to continue crafting those items since it would be cheaper to buy a mirror service, making people less willing to craft. with the same amount of ex you wouldn't afford half the craft yourself. So when eternals allowed players to make 6t1 items, a few of each type were created and then people stopped crafting those archetypes and turned to mirroring and crafting other items.

When you remove mirrors that is no longer true- the path of least resistance to the best items becomes eternal crafting again. You know people will do whatever they can to get better items - it is the goal of the game. If no items are up for trade (of which we know most of the very best have been craft-manipulated by watching pre eternal times), a minority of people will craft, and some will even craft anyway.

They will generate items and maybe sell off some of the almost top-end results, sell their replaced gear (with time the average gear level rises and the higher the level of the gear that gets replaced is) plus maybe one day they will even sell their best items to afford crafting something they want more. Those are some of the ways items flow into the economy.

It may be true as you say that they will still sell for less than the true "average craft-cost value assuming we crafted from white item", for many reasons including a combination of master crafting prefix/suffix/remove affix manipulations, drops, eternal crafting good drops, supply etc, but that will not stop items emerging from eternal-assisted crafting, nor will it stop flippers from flipping. Currently most item crafts or mirror gear does not actually give a positive return in any foreseeable future, or so i hear and i would not be surprised.


About the current gab. It actually is a literal gab, both in prize and quantity compared to their probability destribution. It is true as you say, near mirror rares sell much closer to medium value than their relative crafting cost would suggest, however you should rarely have to craft an item in that gab nowadays because it most often makes little economic sense. Go 6t1 or go home pretty much. People aren't trying to base craft into that range of itemization as much and although luck(rng) sometimes generates a few of these items, the main body of crafting is focused on either middle ranged or mirror items.

In effect that means fewer items are being crafted in that range compared to middle/mirror range. So there is a gab also in item density spread. I also consider master crafting to be middle ranged, although it can augment an item with some high end rolls to create a low-highend rare.


As for those claiming eternal crafting will completely undermine master crafting, they are wrong. Master crafting middle to low-highend items will be much much cheaper, eternal crafting will be far more expensive but the only way to get the best which means you can be 100% sure people will do it.

At the end of the day i would still advocate increasing exalted and eternal drops by like 50-100%. Exalted prices are through the roof already, and are needed for too many things, and with removal of mirrors exalts would be demanded even more. More eternal drops are needed to compensate for mirror removal, raising the amount of items crafted, leading to more middle to highend items crafted and less focus to mirror level items, which seems healthy to the me.

I will also have to agree with those saying that no eternals = mirror level crafting is almost practically dead, and for short leagues mirrors are not a big concern anyway.

Anyway, this thread is about eternals, and the reason i think they fit into the game is that they will allow players to access the full range of item crafting. That only becomes a problem with mirrors.

TL;DR

- Bring back Eternals
- Remove Mirrors
- Boost exalted and eternal drop rates by 50-100%
- As a onetime event to fix poe(after testing changes above in several leagues) introduce new higher tiers of items/affix rolls to fix standard league for future longevity of poe.

Vhlad, a very intelligent post from your side, as most of the time. However, the "mirror locks both copies" idea would remove the entire mirror business altogether. So it is kind of a third option you did not mention.

I do strongly feel like the second option should be incorporated, though. I do not like the first option very much, because it completely de-values mid-tier crafted items, like the stuff that is currently 10 exalt or so (speaking about permanent leagues here).

It seems that people forget that Standard actually exist and all their league items eventually end up in standard. If that's the case, that anyone don't care about standard is all people in leagues RMT morons that sell their shit before leagues merge to Standard? I'm starting to question to mentality of people.


Is everything supposed to rotten back in standard. Why can't we enjoy the game with some serious high end items crafted to perfection. I MEAN SERIOUSLY YOU GOTTA LAUGH at the uniques...

Enter new league, suffer trough the game one more time... Buy some shitty gear, 1 chaos for that unique 1 alch for that one... And so on...

Removing Eternal's did not only decrease the drop rate of Exalt's it pretty much destroyed crafting.


I can see that most people replying doesnt even have a relationship with standard. And that sucks for the game...

Why can't we get more mirrored stuff to mirror in standard, i mean shit the gear i have is over 2 years old and i still care about the stuff I gathered over the years.

I guess many people think it should be removed from the game, doesn't make sense everyone ends up in standard...

Eternal Orb would bring crafting back to life, and i'm pretty sure the high end community would love to be able to create some new stuff instead of using 2+ year old mirrored items for the rest of their lives.

I mean lol they added a half tier to the game so it's possible to make better items then current mirrors...

Don't know why people have problems with accepting that rich people deserve good items. Why is everyone supposed to walk around in shitty gear that cost a fracture of a decent item that exist in Standard? ( Most people in leagues come to standard with vendor food )

Also Standard PvP could be a huge thing if people had high end gear to compete with.

Prilletime I think you hammered the nail on the head!

RIP Crafting dreams.
Without Eternals the wealth requirement to "complete" even a modest craft skyrockets into undefined territory. With Eternals I could reasonably expect pretty good results from a ~200ex crafting budget (for example), without eternals I can reasonably expect 2/5's of sweet fuck all.


Victory Thread so victorious.