Game needs Eternals back (and here's why) |Petition|
" I don't get why it's wrong. I'm not saying it has to take that long to create said item, I'm saying if it did then the power of the item is not too high for the time invested. The guy I replied to used the phrase that eternal ex crafting was OK because the power reflected the time to get the orbs. It didn't, Chris stated it didn't in the podcast "Time went on and we started to see what we call rare convergence, the rate at which people make really good rares, was really too high." Casually casual.
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" You're still measuring power as rarity. For 500ex I could get a 540 pdps bow, a legacy crit multi amulet, and a legacy crit multi quiver. That would give me more HP, and DPS (=more power) than blowing a mirror + 200ex fee on a 600 pdps bow and using 30ex on the quiver/amulet. In temp leagues a mirror is way worse than 500ex, mirrors are basically pointless to have in temp leagues. Yes in terms of rarity going from 5T1->6T1 eternals can save you 100s-1000s of exalts per attempt. I know, I did the math. Yet still eternals are only worth 15-20ex in standard. That said, usually the difference between a 5T1 and 6T1 item in terms of power (defined as ability to do content you care about in the game better) is going to be lower than the cost of going to 5T1 to 6T1. To illustrate: Suppose I wanted to craf t1-t2 ES% on my shield: The probability of hitting it is probably 5-8% after affix blocking. So I would need 20-25 et/ex, or around 100ex at 4et:1ex. For my 100ex investment I would get a little bit more ES. I could spec a little more damage and maintain my current ES. My character holds the world record for Hall of Grandmasters at 6:29, which I've also been farming: If I get 60c/hr farming HOGM, and the 100ex invested into my shield lets me get 65c/hr (a generous improvement) then it would take me 1400 hrs to recoup the 100ex invested into my shield with eternals. This means that using eternals on items wouldn't increase their power as measured by ability to farm, which IMO should be the relevant definition. Furthermore this 100ex option would give me incentive to farm. As is the existence of mirrors but no eternals gives me no incentive to farm up for a mirror. Repeating what Chris said is fine (ie power=scarcity), but it doesn't mean it's necessarily the right way to think about the game. This is the feedback/suggestions forum after all. All my builds /view-thread/1430399
T14 'real' clearspeed challenge /1642265 |
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"Yeah, I would say sockets are a design flaw. First, let's establish that linking sockets is not the only method to establish skill deep skill customization. For example, active skill gems themselves could be magic or rare, and the affixes on the gems could serve the same role as support gems. Now, correct me if I'm forgetting something, but let's just comparative advantages here... RARE GEMS * non-skill gear (ex body armour, weapon) is not imposed a "socketing tax" upon acquisition, allowing for greater upgrade frequency and easy gear switching * allows a skill upgrade progression more in line with Chris's philosophy of multiple items (quoted in my transcript earlier) * works great with affix-based currency and does not require separate currency types SOCKETS * less re-leveling of skill gems (can be mitigated by allowing gems to drop partially leveled already) * establishing attribute requirements for support functions is more intuitive (an affix which increases attribute requirements and makes a skill gem unusable feels bad) So choosing sockets, from a game design perspective you'd get the feeling GGG wanted attribute requirements to really matter. Except the passive tree design as attributes as "pathing costs." And pretty much every non-Talisman amulet base in the game. And Astramentis. So I guess not. So really they were just copying FF7 because they thought it would be cool, and weren't thinking past that. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB on Feb 9, 2016, 7:25:40 PM
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" Absolutely, I'm more likely to disagree with Chris than agree, I find much of what he does and says to be detrimental and really often contradictory. Whether I agree or not about eternals, it clearly was his stance that eternals made acquiring too strong rares too quick/easy. He should never have put them in to start with, he has a blanket policy against binding, mirrors are the logo of PoE, he saw the 'damage' eternals could do internally in this environment and naively thought he could balance them by rarity. He couldn't. If they had never been in the game, nobody would be asking for them back. Casually casual. Last edited by TheAnuhart on Feb 9, 2016, 7:26:01 PM
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" That is mainly because you play this game in a completely unintended fashion, of course you are going to disagree with the designer of the game if you aren't playing it the way they intended when they made it. " If that was his stance from the video then why on earth didn't you just tell me that when I asked instead of calling me out for not watching your linked video which gives views to people that have to do with the podcast. Granted less issues now then in the past, I still don't like the associated members of it so I avoid it. As far acquiring strong rares too quickly, I claim bullshit on that. People in temp leagues very rarely created mirror worthy items, even in the SC league, but they did create items that were "nice" just not as nice as what already exists in standard. Why can't the temp leagues have the ability to create even 3\4 the items that exists in standard (in terms of power\rolls)? Eternals gave purpose to crafting past "this will just do" and made it optional for people to roll that one specific mod they needed for whatever item, instead of losing all or almost all progress in the process. People in temp leagues played longer when eternals were around, lets hear you guys which never play in temp leagues deny that claim. " Right, but because they were removed its upset the balance and perception of the game, it doesn't matter now if we wouldn't be asking for them back, people still ask for various orbs to be added to this day, that expansion idea came with 2 new ones, someone here wants scours changed to just remove one random mod instead (imo that could just be a new orb). The perception at least from my point of view is that the removal of eternals caused a chain effect that put a ripple in the temp league economy and gameplay, from what I've seen SC temp league is much worst as a result. Personally I liked the idea around eternals and the fact that if I wanted long term progression or if I wanted to craft something in the temp leagues and wanted to do a nice dagger or bow build that option would be available I could invest into making a nice thing, now people craft those sorts of weapons the same exact way, the only difference I guess is if you hit something good on trans (2 stats) and regal something amazing, its different then just hitting 1 stat and regaling that and multimodding. Regardless crafting in this game has went from many options to ultimately one, which always involves masters and always involves a player just "settling" on whatever they get. When people settle they lose excitement and the will to play, again part of the reason why temp league play has decreased earlier and earlier.
Spoiler
Want to apologize for my overreaction yesterday, its obviously a hot topic that I feel so strongly about, I let that overrule my character.
https://youtu.be/T9kygXtkh10?t=285 FeelsBadMan Remove MF from POE, make juiced map the new MF. Last edited by goetzjam on Feb 9, 2016, 8:00:05 PM
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" Not wrong necessarily, but it doesn't get to the bottom of things. The point isn't really whether Chris thinks the 'good rares rate' is too high but whether the players agree and even if the approach subjectively compares well to other games. We don't know but I'm pretty sure we could approximate how many people have played PoE for a reasonable amount of time (say at least 50 hours worth of play, which would be reasonable for anything other than a grind-fest). We could also approximate how many people have made a perfect item of any sort (in terms of the affixes available at the time). To pluck a number out of the air, it might be 1 in 500,000, or 0.000002%. Mirrors provide a relief from the inanity of that by allowing a select few (let's say 0.01% of players, though that may be too generous) to copy one or more perfect items. Again, the fundamental question is not what Chris thinks, but do players think that it's okay that a perfect item exists in theory, but is only realistically available to that amount of players and only through certain means? I think it's a flaw, because a perfect item theoretically exists but can't be crafted any more. Crafting therefore doesn't contribute a pinnacle objective to PoE, unlike killing Uber, Core Malachai, hitting level 100 or, if you love trade, collecting X thousand exalts or X hundred mirrors. Last edited by davidnn5 on Feb 9, 2016, 9:50:41 PM
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Davidnn5 I think you said it perfectly. I couldn't agree more!
IGN - Xukai
Mirror Service - /1046531 | |
" Not to mention, we aren't even close to reaching perfect without eternals, so much progression is void. I am the light of the morning and the shadow on the wall, I am nothing and I am all.
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Guys, getting to 5t1 is just as easy, perhaps easier, than it was during the pre-Masters Eternal era. Really, 5t0, because top-end affixes are better now.
It's that last affix which is very tricky. There's no safety net for that. Also, the cost is 100% in Exalts now, which massively increases Exalt consumption and drives up the price of Exalts. You might not be crafting with meta-mods, but players like the creator of Brood Twine sure are. I feel GGG's second biggest mistake here was identifying Awakening as the time to remove Eternals. Really, the necessary time was Forsaken Masters. The combination of Eternals and master meta-mods was just too much. It definitely sounds like they had identified the problem with rare convergence by that point, so it was naive - again - to let Eternals continue to exist in a meta-mod environment. The biggest mistake here, of course, was introducing Eternals in the first place. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB on Feb 10, 2016, 3:33:13 AM
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I'd like to acknowledge the posters in this thread. Lot's of great discussion here, it's been a pretty good read.
wall o' text
The arguments against seem to be founded on rare convergence and economic monopolization? I don't believe I've seen anything which is applicable to Temporary Leagues. Let's come back to that later though.
Firstly, let us look at Standard "The Dumpster" League. I like Standard. I play Leagues to farm for progression in Standard. I don't believe GGG have explicitly stated their attitude towards the Permanent Leagues. One can look at the recent Arctic Boss Kill race which was voided specifically to prevent it from feeding into Permanent Leagues and draw some conclusions there. So GGG's actions suggest that HC/Standard still matter and they worry about league modifiers being detrimental to those leagues. However, what are they actually worried about? The time scales for progression get pretty extreme. There are probably no more than 200 (out of millions) legitimate accounts with the wealth+skill to get ahead of that progression curve and "complete" their builds. Are GGG worried about what happens when a player "completes" a build? The rest of the game should (and does imho) stand on its own merits after that point. There are so many cool and fun things to try, each new build starts a new progression curve and a new wealth-sink. Without false modesty or arrogance I think I'd rank inside the top 15% of wealth in Standard (ignoring illegitimate accounts like bots/rmt). It took me 2 years of farming to acquire my first mirrored item (2nd-hand Loath Bane, and playing most days due to my exceedingly accommodating uni schedule). My 2nd mirrored item is Brood Twine and only because I was lucky to make some heinously advantageous trades in the past ~8 months. So we have myself, very likely above the standard deviation taking 3 years to reach the pinnacle of melee and bow weaponry, and I was fortunate enough that I did not need to craft these myself! I love playing Dagger-Reave and Crit-Split and I am still throwing vast quantities of orbs at those two builds. It is supremely unlikely I will ever sell either of those two items. Let's pretend like I was a top 200 account and could "complete" a given build more or less on a whim. Sure it would be fun to play every now and then on the merits of the gameplay/playstyle, plus the change of pace getting to feel powerful, but having "completed" one build I would simply move onto another. Can any of you say you wouldn't do the same? The Build Diversity in PoE is strong enough that you will run out of resources before you run out of cool and fun things to try. If you don't you will probably quit and marginalize your influence on the economy anyway. No big deal, you've likely spent thousands of hours and bought numerous mtx, that's mission accomplished for GGG. The relationship between long-term progression and customer-retention is also worthy of note but I do not wish digress here. Secondly, let us look at Temporary Leagues. I like Temporary Leagues. I occasionally like to claw my way up the economic ladder, just as I occasionally like to revel in that wealth. Most of you seem to be advocating for preserving the integrity of the gameplay experience in some league or other. I'd argue that Eternals and Mirrors have a pretty minimal impact on Temporary Leagues. Can a meaningful percentage of the playerbase even attempt to undertake a crafting project, much less complete one? Even if a craft is completed very few players will be able to afford a mirror + fee. Does any of that have any significance when the next Temporary Leagues come around? Regarding Master Mods + Eternals co-existing; I just don't see it. All of the GGG rhetoric that I know of pretty much exclusively pertains to Permanent Leagues where the consequences are that the average gear level is slightly inflated over time. IMHO this is actually a healthy outcome for those long-term progression players (whether they play <10h/w or more). @Scrots Please show me your 5t1 items. It's still pretty fucking hard for a lot of people. Really, what kind of scales are we aiming for here?
Spoiler
Was 3t1 when I stopped crafting it. If I want to master-craft it I will end up nuking my most important prefix, or two suffixes...There aren't really any good options if I wish to proceed without eternals. How many stacks of trans/alt/aug/regal/exalts will I need before I hit 4t1, just so I can nuke 2t1 affixes when it bricks?
IGN: Victory_Or_Sovngarde It's not a 13 week development cycle, it's a 13 week supporter-pack cycle. You can play any build you want, as long as it's the current meta. Last edited by Ashen_Shugar_IV on Feb 11, 2016, 7:34:06 PM
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