[2.4 Trickster] Grocery's Caustic Arrow Trickster Shadow! HC Viable!

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muir wrote:

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Grocery wrote:

I don't like Hyrri's over Coil because Coil is consistent. We have dodge/eva, which is incosistent but very good, so pairing it with coil is great for big hits. Hyrri's suffers from the issue of big hits.

It is a good option for cheaper prices though.

This is not hyrri's vs coil, it's hyrri's and 20k armour vs coil.

Just to elaborate on this a litte since it wasnt clear in prior post, my reasoning is that Lcoil+eva is only effective vs large physical dmg hits, and comparatively poor vs either non physical spells, high volume avg to small hits, and particularly in crit chance/multi maps.

Using the aforementioned calculator it can shown that 50/56 dodge and 20k armour is better in most (perhaps all?) circumstances than 40/46, coil, and ~50%eva. 40/46, coil, and 15-16k armour may be better again but im not entirely sure this would pan out in -max/crit scenarios where physical dmg shocking can occur, or under fire from spells or a barrage of shit, need to test more.

Bdy 5L'd my coil tonight so this may happen soonish.

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muir wrote:

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Grocery wrote:

Armour still suffers from the fact that it does not reduce as much vs big 1 shots. All I personally care about is 1 shots. EVA + Coil is the best for escaping 1 shots imo. I feel that the smaller quicker stuff you should not be dying to as you will be moving, so you should never be getting hit that many times.

Hyrri's + Armour is not bad and it is a good cheap option. Armour is good for smaller, quicker shots.

I think we are on the same page. You care more about smaller hits, I care more about larger hits.

People keep repeating this as some kind of axiom, however this is actually quite incorrect.

Having Enfeeble (I use blasphemy) and 22k armour offers greater mitigation than Enfeeble and LCoil up to approx 8000 of physical damage.

Source:

https://jsfiddle.net/1qpx41wm/4/embedded/result/

http://i.imgur.com/aDobm7s.png vs http://i.imgur.com/1G03VZJ.png

If you sit down for a minute with poedb and try to find the physical damage skills used by monsters that exceed this value, you will find there are exactly zero.

So the very argument lcoil proponents are so fond of is actually bunk. It requires you to factor in both evasion and dodge on top of coil to demonstrate better "EHP" over time, which inflects at around 2k physical attack damage.

Of course there are many more damage types in the game than physical, and non attacks vectors as well, which is where coil offers nothing of benefit in contrast with Hyrri's.

The numbers speak for themselves when looking at the physical damage levels of even hard rolled 82s. For instance, an average monster's physical damage on an extra damage map with crit multi, on a crit, would be approx 2k. Enfeeble + 22k armour mitigates this to 544 damage, whereas Enfeeble + Lightning coil mitigates this to 1043 with topaz flask up. Adding Endurance charges makes this difference even greater.

The mindless belief in lightning coil as a panacea for physical damage is truly overblown at this point.

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Grocery wrote:

Why would you use blasphemy on a Caustic Arrow character? You should not be close to mobs, ever, so it is a moot point. It is a giant waste of mana for something that will rarely be useful.

The argument of other damage is not a factor I am concerned with. Evasion is weak against physical damage. Phys Damage is the biggest issue with evasion. Hence why Coil is the go-to. I would guess that most evasion characters die from physical and not other sources and judging by the response from when Ondar's got nerfed, it was pretty obvious that it was the truth.

Now you are talking about endurance charges as well? This has nothing do to do with this build.

Endurance charges + Enfeeble + Blasphemy on a caustic arrow character is so far different from this build I am not even sure why we are talking about this.

How are you generating these charges?
How are you making blasphemy useful?
CA is good because you don't get near mobs and don't have to stand still.

Are there situations where coil is worse? Sure. But for a evasion based caustic arrow build? I'd say no.

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muir wrote:

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Grocery wrote:

Why would you use blasphemy on a Caustic Arrow character? You should not be close to mobs, ever, so it is a moot point. It is a giant waste of mana for something that will rarely be useful.

The argument of other damage is not a factor I am concerned with. Evasion is weak against physical damage. Phys Damage is the biggest issue with evasion. Hence why Coil is the go-to. I would guess that most evasion characters die from physical and not other sources and judging by the response from when Ondar's got nerfed, it was pretty obvious that it was the truth.

Now you are talking about endurance charges as well? This has nothing do to do with this build.

Endurance charges + Enfeeble + Blasphemy on a caustic arrow character is so far different from this build I am not even sure why we are talking about this.

How are you generating these charges?
How are you making blasphemy useful?
CA is good because you don't get near mobs and don't have to stand still.

Are there situations where coil is worse? Sure. But for a evasion based caustic arrow build? I'd say no.

You're clearly not reading/comprehending what I'm saying, and I don't feel you have substantial experience with HC, so I'll just stop posting to this thread to make things easier.