Is this the end of POE?

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StumpyJoe wrote:

The content being difficult has no bearing upon the fact the game has always been a grind to clear the content in the first place. LOD only made it that much harder, balance changes after the fact are not the same thing as stating the grind system was developed based on player behavior.

Keyword Increase grind. I never say grind doesn't exist. You can complete the campaign without much grinding. LOD and the later patches take Grinding to a whole new level.

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Its not judgmental to state a fact about what a player chooses in a game, its why I said I used to play it, I think you're reading my posts with a tone that isn't meant to be there. Aside from that, my point about softcore remains as it eventually becomes boring due to the fact you cannot die and therefore will eventually try all builds, get all items you wanted, etc. Hardcore puts not just extra steps for grinding, but gives you goals that are different from softcore.

I think it is when you purposely look it up and point it out and state hardcore is better. People can have different perceptive. I like a relaxed causal environment when I am playing. You are playing a game, not fighting for your life. Technically it is the same without your adrenaline rush. There is nothing you can't do in standard that you can in hardcore. It is just your ego getting in the way. I don't see how hardcore death is meaningful and exciting either. Go do something meaningful and exciting IRL, not a video game.

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As for saying grinding being counter intuitive in hardcore, its just silly to say it. People don't play hardcore looking to die, they play it because of the possibility of a permanent death. Its rewarding to some when they can survive difficult content knowing the fact they never once died. Its more than just grinding, like softcore, you need a lot of knowledge about the game to understand how to actually progress.

You need better reading comprehension. I say "permanency is against the spirit of roguelike". It is possible to avoid death totally with grinding, overleveling and overgearing. Let's not forgot Alt+F4. This game allow you to avoid death. Allowing permanency is counter intuitive to a hardcore mode. It mean Hardcore in POE is too kiddie glove, it meant to allow you to live.

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Perq wrote:

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Kellog wrote:

I believe the game is far from dead but it does need a radical shake-up. For me, the most glaring area in need of change is the way content is delivered and to some extent, the content itself.

Right now we have:

1. Here's the content, go run it.
.
.
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2. Then run it again
3. and again
4. Then you can do theses crazy things called maps. At useful levels they're stupidly expansive to run and maintain and you won't get much back by way of reward. However, if you keep running the same few maps over and over and over and over again you might reach level 100! In the mean time we'll be doing everything we can to make that possibility as difficult as possible.

I'm not sure what the answer is but there must be some way to break-up the linearity as well as the need to run the same areas over and over and over again.

Is it 2015? Are there still people who doesn't know how to map?

I mean, guys, really, there has been like 2 or 3 buffs, one after another, to the average map level, map drop rate and whatnot. What do you want to happen? 82 maps rain upon you?
Also, you don't need to get level 100 to be complete. If you want to, sure, but this will MASSIVE grind. Not every single player should be able to do it, because if every player could do it, it wouldn't be any achievement at all.

Mapping is fine. to be honest, mapping WAS fine, but there were so many not-so-good players complaining over and over again, how they can't sustain max level maps, that GGG buffed it a little. And before that... yeah, mapping WAS FINE.
So seeing that there are still people who can't get around mapping, I guess even 10 more buffs won't make some people happy.

But I sure agree about the way content is delivered - not in the way of maps, but in the way of challenge leagues. :-V

@GooberM
Trove? You mean, Minecraft? ;=D

Mapping was fine ? in which game ? sure not in poe ...
To hit 100 level , before last map patch i had to spend like 20-30 ex for maps 81,82 so pls do not say that mapping WAS fine because was totally shit..

The problem isn't in one specific change. The problem is in the big picture.

The Awakening was a major change in the player vs. game power balance. Player power went down, game difficulty went up.

List of player power nerfs:


As a result, GGG destroyed what was PoE's main selling point: diversity and theorycrafting possibilities. PoE has always had a few superior builds, but pre-2.0 it was different. There was a wider selection of top-end builds, and there were a lot of subpar but still completely functional builds for the non-powergamers. The Awakening changed the picture completely. It created a much narrower set of top-end builds which can deal with the ramped up challenge, there are some fringe builds which can somehow deal with it, most of them only softcore viable, and that's it. I love theorycrafting and build testing, I thought about dozens of builds, tried 6-7 in Warbands and Tempest and in the end nothing came even close to incinerate builds, which I used, and a few other tier 1 skills I didn't want to use. (author's note: I have many deleted and fully respecced characters and I regularly give my gear away, my character sheet is not indicative of everything I've tried). What's more, they pigeonholed us not only in a few skills, but also in a few items.

Combined with the map changes which turned high-end maps into a luxury and forced most players to grind maps way below their character's capabilities, a decline in players was bound to happen. What's more, it was obvious to me and many other players and we wrote at great length about that as early as closed beta. This is perhaps what bothers me the most: are really GGG's balance team so blind to what should be obvious? Even if they didn't see it, how could they still fail to acknowledge it when it was repeated time and again in feedback by hundreds of players? I used to write in the feedback sections, but at some point it just felt meaningless, so I stopped.


TLDR: The Awakening made players weaker and monsters stronger and destroyed PoE's main strength, build versatility. Also, I'm mad that GGG ignores good, solid feedback or listens to it too late.

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Bars wrote:

TLDR: The Awakening made players weaker and monsters stronger and destroyed PoE's main strength, build versatility. Also, I'm mad that GGG ignores good, solid feedback or listens to it too late.

"It’s an intrinsic paradox - the linear power gain of actually leveling up is completely at odds with the relative power loss of most MMORPGs’ difficulty curves. The farther you progress, the weaker you become in relation to the parts of your environment you have any incentive to interact with."

It is an interesting quote I found online. Power creep, it isn't anything new.

Oh, thanks for introducing me to the new and wonderful concept of power creep, that was an eye-opener.

No, what I wrote has nothing to do with power creep.

Where is this decline people speak of? There are more people playing this October than were playing last October. Looking at a lack of participation between leagues is just as dumb as looking the week after 1 league and thinking to yourself that we are on our way to competing with League of Legends.

I also love this rosey outlook of what build diversity was in 1.3. It was use a skill...ignite...prolif. That was for 6 months in a row! If you were a hipster maybe you started the prolif with a shield charge or froze things for your pals.

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Barivius wrote:

Where is this decline people speak of? There are more people playing this October than were playing last October. Looking at a lack of participation between leagues is just as dumb as looking the week after 1 league and thinking to yourself that we are on our way to competing with League of Legends.

I also love this rosey outlook of what build diversity was in 1.3. It was use a skill...ignite...prolif. That was for 6 months in a row! If you were a hipster maybe you started the prolif with a shield charge or froze things for your pals.

I played in standard HC between the previous one-month and the Awakening, it was small but active. I've tried it several times in the last two weeks, it is empty. It's always been small, but I've never seen it like this. Yesterday evening, there wasn't a single public party up in acts 3 and 4 merciless. There wasn't a single online Mjolner for sale (legacy or non-legacy). In fact, there was almost nothing up for sale.

So, I hope I'm wrong because I love PoE, but I don't think so. These are the facts as I see them.

About build variety pre-2.0: I assume you didn't read my post. There will always be a few meta builds, it's just that pre-2.0 there were many other viable ones. I never played cookie cutters before the Awakening, always had fun playing around with lesser builds - and they worked. Not as well as my flameblasting friend who destroyed everything, but they worked. Now? Not anymore. It's 'cookie cutter or GTFO'.

edit: I suspect we have different perspectives. I gathered you play in standard - it has a much higher population and it can take a decline in playerbase and still function. You also have access to much better gear which probably allows you to brute force more builds. Also, you aren't that worried about dying. I've played both SC and HC and it's wildly different. HC has always been more pigeonholed.

I play in leagues. You are playing on a server where 2% of the population plays at its height, and I don't doubt it is going down. Then you add in a trough period and voila you have 100 people playing.

The almighty steam charts that people use to proclaim the game is dead, have more people playing than this time last year. It's not just an observation. It's fact.

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Barivius wrote:

I play in leagues. You are playing on a server where 2% of the population plays at its height, and I don't doubt it is going down. Then you add in a trough period and voila you have 100 people playing.

The almighty steam charts that people use to proclaim the game is dead, have more people playing than this time last year. It's not just an observation. It's fact.

So we can use steamcharts data when it suits our ends but rag on it when it doesn't? Got it.

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Barivius wrote:

I play in leagues. You are playing on a server where 2% of the population plays at its height, and I don't doubt it is going down. Then you add in a trough period and voila you have 100 people playing.

The almighty steam charts that people use to proclaim the game is dead, have more people playing than this time last year. It's not just an observation. It's fact.

Why are you lying?

Last year this time we had 8300 and now we have 7200 players. About 14% less players. (according to steam charts)