Why don’t we remove trading altogether?

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k1rage wrote:

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terrorist wrote:

I'd like a way for self found players to sorta compete against everyone else within each league. A self found player could participate fully in the game as they normally would with the exception of trading. No buffed drops or any additional help, you could still party with players who trade but you could only pickup items that drop for you. The leader board would indicate that you play self found, possibly by an icon similar to how it shows an icon for twitch.tv streamers. This would give players who play self found a sort of proof of doing so and encourage healthy competition among the top players.

I think people on the self found ladder would just party up with a group of well geared traders and let them carry them to the top...

that is if someone really wanted to be on top of the self found ladder

If they're being carried, that means they're still carrying the burdensome weight of an additional player who would have been better filled by a player who would carry them. That means a party without such player would be faster. And that doesn't change the fact they still would have had to have found all the gear themselves.

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Pizzarugi wrote:

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terrorist wrote:

I'd like a way for self found players to sorta compete against everyone else within each league. A self found player could participate fully in the game as they normally would with the exception of trading. No buffed drops or any additional help, you could still party with players who trade but you could only pickup items that drop for you. The leader board would indicate that you play self found, possibly by an icon similar to how it shows an icon for twitch.tv streamers. This would give players who play self found a sort of proof of doing so and encourage healthy competition among the top players.

So, practically everything self-found players are already doing right now, except with an icon to show they're self-found?

That doesn't eliminate the problem self-found players often keep bringing up. :P

Yes as that's the most important part as giving players a way of proving that they actually play self found. You underestimate the importance of recognition that players seek.

Self found should be a challenge, not a means to an easier game.

I summon thee Shags!

we cant have a self found discussion with out you

Impart your wisdom master of the self found arts!

Silly topic. A solo/self-found player doesn't give a fig about what other people think of his play.

I've stayed out until now simply because it's silly to rehash this. If you want to play solo... do it. If you want to trade, great! Just quit comparing the two as if they're the same game. They're not.

You don't need T1+++ gear. You don't need to run lvl78 maps into the ground. Set goals that are within your playstyle and enjoy yourself. To do that, you have to stop wishing for stuff that you're not going to get. Self-found play is completely viable, so long as you set self-found goals.

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Shagsbeard wrote:

Silly topic. A solo/self-found player doesn't give a fig about what other people think of his play.

I've stayed out until now simply because it's silly to rehash this. If you want to play solo... do it. If you want to trade, great! Just quit comparing the two as if they're the same game. They're not.

You don't need T1+++ gear. You don't need to run lvl78 maps into the ground. Set goals that are within your playstyle and enjoy yourself. To do that, you have to stop wishing for stuff that you're not going to get.

holy crap that worked fast lol

Shags hath spoken

end of thread!

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k1rage wrote:

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Shagsbeard wrote:

Silly topic. A solo/self-found player doesn't give a fig about what other people think of his play.

I've stayed out until now simply because it's silly to rehash this. If you want to play solo... do it. If you want to trade, great! Just quit comparing the two as if they're the same game. They're not.

You don't need T1+++ gear. You don't need to run lvl78 maps into the ground. Set goals that are within your playstyle and enjoy yourself. To do that, you have to stop wishing for stuff that you're not going to get.

holy crap that worked fast lol

Shags hath spoken

end of thread!

You let the genie out of the bottle, now you get it back into the bottle too please. Or no more cake for you.

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comm_il_vec wrote:

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IAmNotBruceWayne wrote:

"Can I get a league where I don't lose my character"

Yes, standard leagues exist and have not impacted the health of the game. Like another poster suggested it makes more sense to make a self-found league with the changes I proposed.

In regards to xp penalties vs. trade you are comparing two things with differing roles in the game. Trade is meant to make the game easier and circumvent an rng based system, while xp penalties exist to make the game more difficult and hinder progress.

Like I said before, trading and accumulating wealth isn't very difficult. It's just tedious. And I don't play self-found, and I never have because I want to strategize, create new character builds, and try them out. Action rpgs are about min-maxing, and it's impossible to do that when you don't know whether or not you will ever obtain certain items due to rng. In the current trading system and the system I am proposing you can still get gear easily. That hasn't changed, but the process and the method has.

"Stop being lazy."

It's a game. It should be difficult and challenging, it shouldn't feel like work. Like I said before, trading is very easy.

Edit to clarify. Like I said in my initial post drop rates would need to be adjusted so that you don't spend years farming one boss for a specific item. Gear would be as attainable as it is now, it would just be more fun.

Why exactly should you be able to get the best gear "easily"? In your own words, getting the best items to create the best builds should be "difficult and challenging." Accumulating enough wealth to get top tier items to play top tier builds is challenging. You can do it without trading, you can do it with trading.

I'm sorry, but it is what it is. At the foundation of this game is RNG. They are adding features that help you bypass -some- RNG for your benefit..and one such feature has been around in which it is the easiest to bypass RNG.

Trading.

And your definition of "work" is subjective. A whole lot of players don't have a qualm with the trading system or RNG because it's part of the game. It's sewn into the fibers of PoE. Do we as traders rebuke the difficulties involved with RNG and trading? No, because it's part of the challenge of the game. Some people who don't like to trade STILL TRADE because they know the benefits. Some people love trading and continue to trade and thrive and have a great time.

Self-founders think they are entitled to a league of their own with higher drop rates because they rebuke a certain aspect built into the game which they deem not fun?

You're right RNG is at the foundation of this game. Without it the game is lifeless. You need some form of uncertainty. But because the itemization in POE is so robust, you need some way of limiting it. The changes I propose allow RNG to exist, but limit it in the same way the trading system does, but without taking players out of the game to look through poe.trade or set up procurement. In my opinion, killing bosses is more fun than searching through a site and whispering or adding a number of players, many of whom are not online, and then negotiating a deal.

And you are right that a number of players either enjoy the current trading system or don't really care if it's changed. A number of players don't like it. And I would argue that most players believe it could be improved in some way, shape or form. It's the reason why the addition of an AH has been discussed so many times.

Now, how does trading affect self-found if they are in the same league?

Currently it requires reduced drop rates for certain items, particularly uniques. It's about supply and demand, and the necessity to keep certain items scarce. If you have a player driven economy that allows easy access to uniques the market will crash. Uniques would have close to no value. Because drops have to be so limited, and because you have no way of reliably finding uniques, it severely limits the number of builds a self-found player can play.

One way that GGG is addressing this is with Divination Cards. I think it's a great start to encourage self-found gameplay. Atziri is another example. I just think they could go a bit farther with specific leagues that incorporate my suggestions.

Div cards are NOT going to help solo play, any more than raising the drop rates of uniques would.

Self found play is unaffected by drop rates. If you don't like the drop rates we have now, it's because you've seen that others can get items 1000x faster by trading and you're expecting similar results somehow. That's not how it works. See... if they raised the drop rates, or add cards that you trade for stuff, the traders are still going to get stuff 1000x faster and you're still going to want what they have! It's about you. It has nothing to do with drop rates.

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Shagsbeard wrote:

Div cards are NOT going to help solo play, any more than raising the drop rates of uniques would.

Self found play is unaffected by drop rates. If you don't like the drop rates we have now, it's because you've seen that others can get items 1000x faster by trading and you're expecting similar results somehow. That's not how it works. See... if they raised the drop rates, or add cards that you trade for stuff, the traders are still going to get stuff 1000x faster and you're still going to want what they have! It's about you. It has nothing to do with drop rates.

I think you believe that I'm a self-found player...I'm not. I try to min-max as much as possible and that only comes through trading items. I only wish that I could min-max without having to trade. I've actually gone over this in another comment in this thread.

And it's not just about drop rates, it's about providing loot tables and the ability of a self-found player to reliably acquire certain items without having to trade for them.

I submit that you don't know how damaging what you "want" would be to the game. Try playing Torchlight. You can get pretty much what ever you want there. It's not satisfying. Most long time players thrive on the scarcity that we currently have. It's why we play for years rather than weeks.