Protecting your "PRECIOUS" economy ain't working so give up and fix desync instead

"

 I never said an SFL was a local off-line league. SFL would still require the Internet and be server/client driven. The only change would be that the client would be the authority on position/movement and the rest stays on the server. That's all.

I don't see how this would be an issue, however players that couldn't play the rest of the game with the not as trusting client would then complain. It opens a door i'm not sure we want opened, however I can respect the idea of it.

"

 I never said that the current server/client programming model wasn't effective at minimizing hackers, in fact I acknowledged that GGG was quite effective at keeping hacks out of PoE. In over 2 years of casual and sometimes semi-serious playing of PoE desync hasn't been reduced at all and as my efficiency of playing a build has gone up so to has the amount of desync I experience. Attempting to increase my map/zone clearing speed with fast evasion builds is the current cause of high desync. To that end GGG has indeed failed to deliver a better playing experience since my start in CB.

Again, without sacrificing security I believe they've stated many times the options are limited. I wish everyone has the same gameplay experience I do.

 

"

Not if GGG can figure out how to do multi-threaded programming such that the client can self monitor itself for hacks and shut down immediately upon detecting any hacking attempts. Since I don't want to cheat and never will I'll take significantly reduced desync over a Fort Knox protected game economy, which incidentally hasn't happened as other bugs (such as /hideout) or Maphack (only now is GGG banning players that use it but it's been around for quite a while) or other secret bots that are adversely affecting the PoE economy and cheating the legit players and robbing us of maximum fun by forcing us to endure high desync just to play our beloved PoE.

This issue is more complicated then the majority of people can understand. In addition I have no idea how difficult it would be to make a cheat detection program in this day and age, your asking a small indie company to come up with a way of detecting and shutting down the client as soon as any cheats are loaded, this is NOT a simple task.

I think in general we see eye to eye on the issue, its the implementation and consequences we don't. Others simply just state 1-2 line responses to try and avoid discussing the necessary points and downsides of their argument.

"

Arrowneous wrote:

 It has already been discussed and established that Internet latency to the PoE game servers is not the cause of so much desync we have to put up with (just look at my post on how very good my link to Dallas is), but that "action prediction" is a failure for anything that moves faster than a slow pace. Also, I don't have a #1 arpg at this time. There are aspects of D3:RoS that I like (very low desync and Rifts), TL2 does some things very well (loot and fast play), and PoE has some great features (build diversity, theory crafting, passive tree, old school arpg hardcore theme, history and story telling to set the mood) but none of them are great at everything. Currently PoE is closer if I had to pick a 1, 2, and 3, but if GGG can deliver a much lower desync version of PoE then it would be a no-brainer for me to declare it the #1 current arpg.

Read the dev manifesto on the topic. Pure latency might not be the issue, but the elements in-between are. Yes the code is 1 aspect, however you can't PURELY blame the code of the game when players like myself don't have issues when players like you do. The simplest way to prove it is for you to use my internet connection with your pc, then we share everything, BUT the same hardware. If you don't experience the desync with my connection, then how its it PURELY a GGG code issue?

Action prediction is necessary, the manifesto goes into great detail on why this is necessary.

"

goetzjam wrote:

Again, without sacrificing security I believe they've stated many times the options are limited. I wish everyone has the same gameplay experience I do.

 If you are indeed playing PoE with few desyncs then do us all a favor and give us instructions on how to configure our PoE client to do the same and get lower desync. To talk about the fact that you personally don't desync much and thus defend GGG's server/client programming model only goes so far for your position. Now you need to let everyone else in on your setup so we can have less desync too.[/quote]

"

goetzjam wrote:

This issue (desync) is more complicated then the majority of people can understand. In addition I have no idea how difficult it would be to make a cheat detection program in this day and age, your asking a small indie company to come up with a way of detecting and shutting down the client as soon as any cheats are loaded, this is NOT a simple task.

I think in general we see eye to eye on the issue, its the implementation and consequences we don't. Others simply just state 1-2 line responses to try and avoid discussing the necessary points and downsides of their argument.

 I think I already conceded to not know how to program at this complicated a level. I also know that multi-threaded code is even more complex to synchronize and debug so I have no doubt that GGG has their hands full (and then some) with the daunting task of reducing desync. I only know that from a players perspective desync sucks to the max, restricts our ability to create fast moving builds that are a blast to play, and tarnishes the overall quality of this arpg.

 If GGG can't or won't try experiments (make a new temp league if they don't want to wreck the current leagues and don't allow gear to carry over to the permanent leagues) then they are doing every one of us a disservice.

I think we've beaten the old desync topic to death. Now the ball is in GGG's court to tackle the problem head on and keep us well informed before thousands more quit over this.

"

 If you are indeed playing PoE with few desyncs then do us all a favor and give us instructions on how to configure our PoE client to do the same and get lower desync. To talk about the fact that you personally don't desync much and thus defend GGG's server/client programming model only goes so far for your position. Now you need to let everyone else in on your setup so we can have less desync too.

First step upgrade from toaster, second step SSD, 3rd step acquire any ISP in central USA, forth step buy supporter packs, GGG gives you a special route that helps you not desync.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

AlbinosaurusRex wrote:

It boils down to this: How long can the game survive with a dwindling player base (mostly due to desync) in the name of preventing cheating (which it still doesn't)?

It does prevent some forms of cheating, but not all. You have no stats to prove your statement is true, you aren't GGG you don't know how many players are playing in the game, really as simple as that.

How much proof do you really need? Especially when you provide nothing to the contrary. We all KNOW that cheating happens, and we also know that the player base is significantly smaller than it was a year ago, and that was smaller than 4-6 months before that. People leave all the time because they get fed up with the desync and how stale it makes the meta.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

 If you are indeed playing PoE with few desyncs then do us all a favor and give us instructions on how to configure our PoE client to do the same and get lower desync. To talk about the fact that you personally don't desync much and thus defend GGG's server/client programming model only goes so far for your position. Now you need to let everyone else in on your setup so we can have less desync too.

First step upgrade from toaster, second step SSD, 3rd step acquire any ISP in central USA, forth step buy supporter packs, GGG gives you a special route that helps you not desync.

It's hard to justify buying more than stash tabs while desync is an issue that they haven't resolved in... what? Going on 3 years now? I'd be happy to buy supporter packs if the game only ran smoothly. And no, it isn't my rig or my connection.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

 If you are indeed playing PoE with few desyncs then do us all a favor and give us instructions on how to configure our PoE client to do the same and get lower desync. To talk about the fact that you personally don't desync much and thus defend GGG's server/client programming model only goes so far for your position. Now you need to let everyone else in on your setup so we can have less desync too.

First step upgrade from toaster, second step SSD, 3rd step acquire any ISP in central USA, forth step buy supporter packs, GGG gives you a special route that helps you not desync.

So your advice to lower desync is
1. BUY new computer.
2. Buy new hard drive.
3. Move
4. buy supporter pack.

Suddenly this game has become more expensive to play than 5 years of any subscription mmo, including all the mountain dew you can drink.

"

How much proof do you really need? Especially when you provide nothing to the contrary.

So the burdon of proof lies on the person disputing the claim rather then the one making it? Does that not seem backwards at all to you.

"

We all KNOW that cheating happens, and we also know that the player base is significantly smaller than it was a year ago, and that was smaller than 4-6 months before that. People leave all the time because they get fed up with the desync and how stale it makes the meta.

Ok, your "facts" have no source and you are PRESENTING THEM AS FACTS, not opinions.

"

It's hard to justify buying more than stash tabs while desync is an issue that they haven't resolved in... what? Going on 3 years now? I'd be happy to buy supporter packs if the game only ran smoothly. And no, it isn't my rig or my connection.

So it isn't my rig or connection either that make me not have desync like you, so what is it, please I'd like to know. I was really just being funny when I made that point. I have had 3-4 different ISPs (one being a FREAKING TETHERED phone connection) 2 different physical machines, but 3 total operating systems, windows 7 (on both desktop and laptop) and most recently (currently) Windows 10. Everyone's experience with desync is different then others, this isn't a timeline issue for how long it takes to resolve, its the principle, you don't typically change a principle of your game, even if it can improve the experience for some players overall because then you alienate those players that supported your game from the start.

Its the combination of everything that makes it so you have desync as bad as you do. I don't care if its the PC\ISP\route or the INTERACTION between those and GGG's code, its still a combination issue. Post all the speed test, routes, ect all you want contact GGG support and see if the technical staff has recommendations, follow the things I suggested, such as quartz flask with movement speed around mobs, /oos macro, ect. Saying NOTHING has been done in 3 years is completely asinine, quartz flask were added to the game, are you disputing the fact those help? I don't have the answer to everything that has been done to help with desync (quite frankly because its a non issue for me currently) but don't pin this SOLEY on GGG. If it was COMPLETELY a code issue then EVERY SINGLE PLAYER WOULD EXPERIENCE IT THE SAME EXACT WAY WHEN ENCOUNTERING THE SAME EXACT SCENARIOS and that SIMPLY IS NOT TRUE.

"

goetzjam wrote:

Its the combination of everything that makes it so you have desync as bad as you do. I don't care if its the PC\ISP\route or the INTERACTION between those and GGG's code, its still a combination issue. Post all the speed test, routes, ect all you want contact GGG support and see if the technical staff has recommendations, follow the things I suggested, such as quartz flask with movement speed around mobs, /oos macro, ect. Saying NOTHING has been done in 3 years is completely asinine, quartz flask were added to the game, are you disputing the fact those help? I don't have the answer to everything that has been done to help with desync (quite frankly because its a non issue for me currently) but don't pin this SOLEY on GGG. If it was COMPLETELY a code issue then EVERY SINGLE PLAYER WOULD EXPERIENCE IT THE SAME EXACT WAY WHEN ENCOUNTERING THE SAME EXACT SCENARIOS and that SIMPLY IS NOT TRUE.

The problem with your assertion is that people can say whatever they want here. If you think I buy the bullshit that you don't experience desync, even for one second, you are mistaken. Nobody can prove that people do or don't experience desync. What you're saying is asinine, and I will never believe you don't have this problem. You're a well known GGG fanboy and at one point you literally told me to send you my PC. You are not a reasonable person in the first place, so whether you experience desync or not is to begin with not even a concern to me. I am only concerned with reasonable people.
Actually I take that back. Post an hour of you playing with /oos visible every 10s, and the obvious effect of that macro going off every 10s so that we know it's actually being entered, and the effect being very minimal. Then I will believe your claims about desync. Until then I will assume your fanboy status means you are lying.
Most likely outcome though, is that the corpses from your flameblast prolif offscreen kills get jumbled around like insanity every 10 seconds despite not affecting your game play because you use a bullshit build.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

How much proof do you really need? Especially when you provide nothing to the contrary.

So the burdon of proof lies on the person disputing the claim rather then the one making it? Does that not seem backwards at all to you.

"

We all KNOW that cheating happens, and we also know that the player base is significantly smaller than it was a year ago, and that was smaller than 4-6 months before that. People leave all the time because they get fed up with the desync and how stale it makes the meta.

Ok, your "facts" have no source and you are PRESENTING THEM AS FACTS, not opinions.

Let's be clear, the burden of proof actually lies with your claim that desync isn't an issue considering it's the most discussed topic on the forums and always has been. Since my point was two parts--dwindling player base and cheating isn't prevented--let's look at it.

Let's compare some stats:

1. Starting with Steam. Peak today 8.3k players. Even if we were generous and assume that only 1/4 of the poe community is made up of Steam users (which is close to what most people assume; I think it's actually more like 1/2), that still only puts the active players around 35k (or 17k if I'm correct). We don't actually know what % of players Steam users make up, but we do know that the ratios will be proportionately consistent across the player base. A year ago, the average was about double what it is now. We can see big influxes of players when a new season starts, but where those peaks hit is telling; less each time. It doesn't take a genius to see that this game's player base IS dwindling. It's not like poe will "die" any time soon, but we can clearly see that what GGG is doing is not working. It will be a slow death unless they do something about desync.

2. According to this article the game's total peak in 2013 was around 70k concurrent players. But hold on, they have 3.7m registered accounts? That's 1.89% of total players playing at once. That's the best they ever had.

3. As for the cheating, this has already been established as fact many times in this thread via the confession thread and quotes from Chris himself about the map hackers. Let's not forget the botters either.

So now it's your turn. Where is your evidence?