Do we expect too much from GGG?

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PolarisOrbit wrote:

I don't think a sequel to POE makes much sense. POE is more of a service than a product and the concept of a sequel doesn't apply to services.

If they have an idea for POE2 that they can't fit into POE, that seems more like a spinoff opportunity to me. Let it be POE:Adventures or what have you.

A service? really?

E: to clarify, I cant "play" xbox live: a service. I can play CoD(the product) on xbox live.

Don't take this response too seriously Charan, I get your points and mostly agree to the lower half.

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

...Look at PoE's systems and tell me that THAC0 wouldn't fit right in with some of that convoluted math. And the potential of grasping that math is exposed like a disemboweled animal for the players in a way that is equally horrifying and fascinating.

The math behind "To hit armor class 0" was so simple that a dice and simple spreadsheet were enough to apply it. The problem with THAC0 was, that a lower armor class is better than a high one which is counterintuitive. As a kid I gave all my front line warriors in Eye of the Beholder 2 robes to maximize their AC values. lol

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

Like I said, this is where Condor/Blizzard's expertise blitzes GGG's

Are you talking about the Blizzard North that created a game where the DPS formulas were so complicated, that the DPS numbers in your char screen were often wrong? Or where cast speed, hit recovery etc. had ultra complicated breakpoints due to their 2D engine? ;)

Diablo 1 was pretty simple yeah, all the game mechanics with all the major and minor glitches and stuff fit into one PDF (Jarulf's guide).

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

No, not a sequel so much as a revamp, A Wraeclast Reborn if you will. Sequel sort of implies a narrative follow-on, which wouldn't be the case here.

My belief for over two years now has been PoE is a house built on soft ground. Not mud, just soft ground. Okay enough for a small dwelling but only that. Yes, you can add more and probably even expand the house into a mansion, but the fact remains that the foundation is weak. That's no one's fault really -- this is the land they had, and they made absolutely the best of it.

Isn't POE constantly being revised with patches every 3-4 months? What's the difference between what they're doing now and a "revamp?" It's gradual, it's not all at once, but Wraeclast is already in the process of becoming Wraeclast Reborn.

Purely opinion here but there's only so much a company can grow before they need more capital investment. I get that they love their independence but I also think that personal donations from your fanbase can only take you so far. That being said, you can either go public, find partners or stagnate.

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

...You didn't really get my metaphor, did you?

he just wants a new wing on that mansion in the marsh

E; Just picture what the outcome would have been if Blizz just kept adding a few uniques to Diablo 1 instead of starting development on D2 as soon as they knew they had a winning formula

D3 is what can happen when you wait too long.

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

Fair points. I can list a litany of things wrong with D1 and D2. I don't want to seem as though I'm forgetting all those. But what you're really talking about is when people really dig and scratch, which a certain subset of player will do (and that's the subset for whom POE was made, I believe). The majority of folk were happy to just play D2 and not worry a great deal about break points and dps. Keep in mind that 'dps' wasn't even a stat in D2 (at least, not when I played it), and that I believe 'dps' is an incredibly bad stat to introduce into a game anyway. That's another argument for another time.

I'm one of those guys who want to know everything about the underlying mechanics of games I play a lot. Even with relatively simple console games I studied gamefaqs guides and stuff when I was still interested in the game after the first playthrough.

I played D2 without greater mechanical knowledge only at release, where noone knew what he was doing. So it's really interesting to read about other perspectives. You are most likely right in the above quote and this discussion turned out to be very interesting for me. Always nice to broaden the perspective.

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TheWretch wrote:

Purely opinion here but there's only so much a company can grow before they need more capital investment. I get that they love their independence but I also think that personal donations from your fanbase can only take you so far. That being said, you can either go public, find partners or stagnate.

External capital investment might be good if they use it to fund PoE 2 but I'm sure that business model would destroy PoE 1 pretty quick. Once they take that money they can no longer make the game they want but have to make compromises to get more quick revenues. Many old players would likely not like that approach and quit. They would end up trying to compete D3's market and fight a war they cannot win.

^ that's a lot of assumptions. The right publisher would know not to try to fix what isn't broken. PoE cant cost that much to maintain, from a medium/large sized publisher's perspective. Its the prospect of someone handing GGG a few M's and telling them to go for round 2 that has me excited.

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

...You didn't really get my metaphor, did you?

Rather, I pointed out why it doesn't map to the situation at hand. You can look at other long-lived RPGs, they change drastically over time. Ultima Online, Ragnarok, WOW, all those games have gone through changes that seemed impossible on launch day just by lasting long enough. I see no reason why POE doesn't fall into the same category. Maybe I'm just an optimist, but where you see a new start as needed, I see a road that can get us to the same place. You don't throw out all your traveling supplies when you want to go to a new place, and in the same way we don't need a new POE built from scratch to advance it forward.

The house on a foundation metaphor only makes sense if GGG leaves the foundation in place and doesn't touch it. I don't see the evidence for that, rather, I think you have to ignore the evidence we've got to look at it that way. When GGG is changing both the foundation and the house it's a useless metaphor. Diablo 3 is a house on a foundation. POE is a road.

PoE is just insisting on keeping its faulty mechanics. PoE would not need a PoE 2, if GGG could just say "ok we thought this would be better for the game, but the way it interacts with other mechanics and technical realities ultimately made it a worse addition."

But the general attitude in terms of development points towards over attachment for any design decision they made along the way, good or bad. Sometimes it is ok to let go.

You dont bandaid cuts caused by the exposed blade, you just cover the blade or remove it.