Reflect needs a rework

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Aim_Deep wrote:
I'm playing crit on all my characters this season on.

Even a bad crit build is better than a good non crit build.

Just to give example

I played foxys RF acer last season with it's huge "more spell damage buff", was probably higest DPS self cast arc build, but it's half the DPS of crit arc which has a shitty 5% CC



I was somewhat joking around with some of my comments in this thread. I love crit builds too, my 2 main high level melee builds in standard are crit dagger builds, one life one ci.

Thing is, they can both load up a double reflect map, go and attack reflect packs in the map and take no significant damage, and thats without atziri gloves or vaal pact. I had atziri gloves, Foxtactics gave them to me from his first uber kill in Ambush, I tried them out for a map or two and gave them back, told him to sell them and enjoy his money. Sure I have mirrored daggers that can reach the 100,000s dps tooltips but for mapping I don't feel like you need it. Imo a good build should not have a problem with reflect, thats a personal opinion obviously. I don't use crit multi gems on these dagger builds, the life based one doesnt even use a melee phys gem precisely for this reason. It has like 65k dps aoe? Thats already excessive for mapping imo.

Foxes crit arc build has more deeps than his old RF build hats true, I dont think it clears as fast as his old RF build though as is less complete as a build. I don't think he believes its as good as his old build either, not that the old build can still be made in the same way so its not like comparing 2 viable builds in the game atm. I think his dual sceptre ninja cod build could potentially clear faster than the rf one, but was a lot less tanky and less complete in that regard, it didnt have the full picture. Coil op.


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Aim_Deep wrote:
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Snorkle_uk wrote:

Ghazzy thinks he has the highest dps spec in the game I believe?


I found his uber kill through google. No. run took him 21 min. Takes Tom 8 min full clear. Atziri/vaals doesnt even get off any spells with Tom's Shatter Chuck they just pop up and die.



oh ya Im sure its not the most effective build in the game, you have to summon all the little things and then wait for them all to attack etc, its never going to be as fast as a projectile build that applies direct damage. But thats where tooltip dps and actual clear speeds part ways. We mentined Fox earlier, I see people with 6 figure wander builds, I watch them clear maps in vids and theyre not as fast as foxes old 21k dps arc build, simply because of the mechanics of arcs auto targeting and how fast lightning warp moves you with super cast speed. Add in 5 other players where 21k arc stops 1 shotting all the white/blue mobs and that stops being true of course. Spec Throw itself, the projectiles take time in the air, if you had an arc that could 1 shot the vaals it would be quicker than spec throw because of the mechanics no matter if the spec throw had 50x the arcs dps. Clear speed and dps dont always go hand in hand.




As I said I was just posting silly business in this thread to some extent but the principal of a build having to be reflect safe I do believe in. If your build can die to reflect, imo, thats a bad build. If you got an abyssus on, probably a bad build for a number of reasons. Any build that dies more than once in a blue moon is a bad build, and I say that as a predominantly softcore player who plays a lot of crit builds. Not that theres anything wrong with playing a bad build, if its fun and you enjoy it then go for it, its a game have fun, but it is what it is. If you were trying to make a serious build that works and you are dying to reflect then its a failure imo, need to rework your build not call for the game to rework its mechanics. Reflect is there as a countermeasure for exactly this reason and its doing its job, its healthy for the game. If you can get that 6/7 figure deeps and still be immune to double or triple reflect then GG, power too you man. If not, probably want to ditch those dogshit malis and get some proper gloves, drop that multi gem and get a setup that works. Personally I never use malis, are they ever really necessary? Just too much fixation on that epeen paper number.
@OP: I kind of hate reflect too, one shot myself a few times with frenzy in 1.1.
GGG may reconsider the mechanic but you can't expect any change soon. So my advices:

- Don't use Drillneck/Pierce, this combo is out of control. Try Chain on your AOE instead. It also clears very fast and, combined with LgoH, makes reflect an almost non issue. But you'll still have to be careful for your single target.

- There's a build made around Queen of the forest in the ranger builds list. The author has more than 90% chance to avoid his own hits. You may want to give it a look.
Ranger builds list: /917964
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If the witches watching watches watch the same watch while you watch which witch watches which watch, they switch watches; then, the watch switching witches watch which watch you watch.
Watching witches watch watches is not for the faint of heart...
Last edited by Panini_aux_olives on Sep 28, 2014, 11:06:46 AM
I agree that reflect is crazy irritating, I usually faceroll pretty well, but then suddenly insta kill myself if I do not see the reflect in time. It does feel out of place and the content should feel more even IMO. I always wondered why they don't get rid of reflect as an aura, and slightly increase the reflect amount. That seems like a good solution to me since at least then you won't accidentally one shot yourself on a large group. Just have the rare mob have reflect, not everything around him too. Also, as an mod for maps, it is horrible. So many builds just nope when it is rolled.
IGN: FemmeFatality
i agree reflect is a lazy way of making game "harder", the easy way to kill glass cannons. Which is a bad desing imo

Anyways i have a 350pdps bow with 86crit chance and 606 multi and i didnt die to reflect yet (lvl91)

To play pure reflect maps i just use ice shot+blackgleam
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sanleon wrote:
i agree reflect is a lazy way of making game "harder", the easy way to kill glass cannons. Which is a bad desing imo

Anyways i have a 350pdps bow with 86crit chance and 606 multi and i didnt die to reflect yet (lvl91)

To play pure reflect maps i just use ice shot+blackgleam


Reflect if done right is actually an extremely interesting mechanic with immense game-play enhancing possibilities... what we have is called reflect but isn't actually a reflect mechanic because it reflects nothing. It is an invisible, instant, non-interruptable, range-less punishment based purely on attacker's strength that is to me a shame that wastes all of it's potential to be an incredible mechanic. They picked pretty much the worst and most lazy way to implement it that one can conceive and in doing so made it a skill-less mechanic that is a simple gear check.

edit - and that is what I hate the most about it, it COULD be something we love about the game but is as far from that as they could make it
Last edited by Jiero on Sep 28, 2014, 4:56:20 PM
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Aim_Deep wrote:
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Lord_Kamster wrote:
I also feel that reflect mobs need to have a large and noticeable, umistakable aura.


Go play d3. They carebeared this feature in like 6 patches ago and nerfed reflect to the ground on top of it.

Most players here are intelligent enough to deal with it thank god. first reflect crying thread I read here.

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IlyaK1986 wrote:
That anyone who dies to reflect simply doesn't have enough defense is BS.


lack of defense or leech pick one or both.



Just because a mechanic is balanced doesn't mean it's designed in a way that is engaging, interesting, and fun. It's just a cheap and lazy way to balance out glass cannon leech DPS characters that always dominate in endgame ARPGs.
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Jiero wrote:
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sanleon wrote:
i agree reflect is a lazy way of making game "harder", the easy way to kill glass cannons. Which is a bad desing imo

Anyways i have a 350pdps bow with 86crit chance and 606 multi and i didnt die to reflect yet (lvl91)

To play pure reflect maps i just use ice shot+blackgleam


Reflect if done right is actually an extremely interesting mechanic with immense game-play enhancing possibilities... what we have is called reflect but isn't actually a reflect mechanic because it reflects nothing. It is an invisible, instant, non-interruptable, range-less punishment based purely on attacker's strength that is to me a shame that wastes all of it's potential to be an incredible mechanic. They picked pretty much the worst and most lazy way to implement it that one can conceive and in doing so made it a skill-less mechanic that is a simple gear check.

edit - and that is what I hate the most about it, it COULD be something we love about the game but is as far from that as they could make it

I disagree. The way reflect works in this game opens up many creative ways to avoid it, or even benefit from it.

Incinerate + AA = trivialize reflect
Add or convert to chaos damage = no reflect
Overcap resistances = lower reflect
CWDT + IC = perma physical immunity
CWDT + curse = auto curse constantly up

You know it's there (precisely so you don't mindlessly stack damage) so build around it.
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exactly, reflect is so good for the game, its not lazy, its not bad. Stop making bad, lazy builds and actually adapt to it, the tools are there to achieve faceroll deeps and be 100% safe.

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holocaustus wrote:

Incinerate + AA = trivialize reflect
Add or convert to chaos damage = no reflect
Overcap resistances = lower reflect
CWDT + IC = perma physical immunity
CWDT + curse = auto curse constantly up

You know it's there (precisely so you don't mindlessly stack damage) so build around it.


even as simple as working with armours mechanic of being more effective against small hits, killing yourslef with reave? Swap to double strike splash for twice as many hits at lower damage each, problem solved. Killing yourself with lmp? try gmp? Come on people, use your head, thats what the game is all about.
Last edited by Snorkle_uk on Sep 28, 2014, 5:33:13 PM
I play exclusively on Beyond/HC and manage to deal with reflect, but I definitely think it should be removed from non-map areas. Especially in Cruel. Your damage will typically scale far higher than your life during this stage of the game and it is irritating to have to bring traps and shit to deal with reflect mobs. Maybe Reflect should only be like 7-8% in Cruel or something, but it is definitely the difficulty where I have the most issues with reflect.

While I am in agreement with those who think reflect can be managed, that doesn't change the fact that it is an extremely lazy and non-fun mechanic. It would make more sense if the actual projectiles were sent flying back at you, then you could manually dodge them. I realize this leaves melee in the dust, but I've never experienced problems with melee reflect before.

Realistically, I wish they would remove it and add interesting monsters to "counter" high damage ranged builds, like evangelists.
Team Won
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ggnorekthx wrote:
I play exclusively on Beyond/HC and manage to deal with reflect, but I definitely think it should be removed from non-map areas. Especially in Cruel. Your damage will typically scale far higher than your life during this stage of the game and it is irritating to have to bring traps and shit to deal with reflect mobs. Maybe Reflect should only be like 7-8% in Cruel or something, but it is definitely the difficulty where I have the most issues with reflect.

While I am in agreement with those who think reflect can be managed, that doesn't change the fact that it is an extremely lazy and non-fun mechanic. It would make more sense if the actual projectiles were sent flying back at you, then you could manually dodge them. I realize this leaves melee in the dust, but I've never experienced problems with melee reflect before.

Realistically, I wish they would remove it and add interesting monsters to "counter" high damage ranged builds, like evangelists.



Ranged characters should have higher reflect damage but have the ability to dodge projectiles while melees cannot dodge their reflect but deal with a much lower reflect percentage than ranged characters do. Makes sense and it creates a distinguishing factor for ranged and melee play. It means ranged characters have to play more careful but still can glass cannon their way through the game if they dodge their own projectiles, while melee characters don't have to compensate as much in their build for reflect.

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