Two-Handed Weapons Viable?

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JohnNamikaze wrote:

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Gobla wrote:

I don't think you realize just how much damage 400% more is. That's 5 times the damage. That's basically getting every single crit multiplier bonus that exists in the game along with a guaranteed crit and after that you still get to roll for another crit on top. 100% is already stretching it and probably too much. 400% is insane.

As for physical reduction, the 25% all resist would include 25% physical resistance and 25% chaos resistance. Though again, those percentages are probably too high. Just goes to show how much is needed to compete with block...

I must be getting 2.5 billion DPS then with Abyssus. /sarcasm


I apologize for being sarcastic, but I had this on my chest, and I needed to release it. :3



I already said earlier 300%-400% was way over the top as long as you can still use AoE/Projectile on your skills. If the keystone can omit those functions, limiting to just single-target skill, then who knows. But I will iterate back to you with this, I do not think you realize how incredible AoE/Projectile is in this game. With those two, you literally have another form of defense on top of that along with having great offense. If you use a single-target skill, it would feel very inadequate. Hell, most single-target skill I have is only situational, and even then I forget to use them because how awesome AoE/Projectile quasi skills are (this includes supporting a skill with melee splash/LMP).


I need those AoE/Projectile tags on my skills for my 2H weps because that is my best defense. I take them out, what do I left to protect from the enemies?

Again, I already said 300-400% was over the top to the other poster, but what about 200% more damage?

40-60 physical damage <> 600 physical damage base...

If your abyssus had 300-600 flat damage, ya you would be doing like a billion damage with the face breaker modifier.

2 handed weapons have among the highest potential flat damage, outside of some spell linked to a corrupted empower in a +3 item or something. The difference being that the 2 handed weapon is one item and the spell is like 3-4 extreme items all linked together.

The very high flat damage is why boosting the offense with passive more modifiers is potentially a horrible idea.

2h even with legacy kaoms lack the HP a 2hander needs to supplement their lack of defense. Es characters are in the 8-10k es range with shields and a plethora of items that remove any handicaps es would inherently have. While also having 0 drawback...I.e 20% less HP, oh boy. 1h HP based characters can get 5-6k HP pretty free plus shield. HP based 2h is around 8-9k HP with legacy gear. Point is 2h nodes should have HP on them, we had some pre patch..not many but some. 2h melee weapons should also have 2 more range then they do now. At the moment 1h weapons are as far reaching or reach further then all but 2h Axe.

Presence of aoe/ranged 'melee' skills is a cardinal error that mostly makes further discussion pointless. Any form of balance shall look artificial or hinge on one element (like keystone). We already have lowlife builds depending only on shavs. Lets not repeat this mistake..

Balancing in current situation - with melee splash, incAOE (and herald of ash..) - is pretty damn impossible

each buff to 2h means buffs to spectral throw, ground slam or lightning strike. these skills are perfectly ok right now

buffing HP of 2h builds could make melee variants 'ok' while making ranged ones 'broken'

also making '2h phys dmg' nodes higher (instead of typical 12/24% values into lets say 20/40% would - as previously - buff broken builds as well as the weak ones

one solution would be to make a 'point blank' for melee (as default!!) - where in small radius dmg is doubled or something. this would make ie.: lightning strike initial hit stronger while keeping projectiles same as now

but - and ill repeat this for the 101th time - the culprit is BLOCK. remove block from the picture and suddenly everything looks much more balanced than now. BLOCK is the king of defense and loosing it is THE BIGGEST price 2h builds pay.

There is a potential solution to this dilemma. And it evolves around increasing EHP on 2-hand users not offense.

Step 1 :

Rework 2-hand implicits.

First of all 2-handers need to roll a double implicit just because of "logic"

1-hand sword 18%acc?

2-hand swords should get 36% then.
(but this is mostly trivial it just bugs me that's why i note it here)

The real buff should come in form of a second implicit modifier on 2-handers.

Item level 0 -> 50 2-handers

second implicit should be +2 max resistance

item level 50 -> 65

second implicit should be +4 max resistance

item level 65 -> 81 (highest possible bases currently?)

second implicit should be +6 max resistance

This will improve EHP value's against the hard hitters in end-game which are spell elemental based bosses.
Please note, this is a +max resis value, it does not add resistances in itself they still have to be capped for the effect.

This should happen to all 2-hand weapons EXCEPT staffs.

For staffs the second implicit modifier should be

0-> 50

50% spell block

50-> 65

75% spell block

65-> 81

100% spell block

This might sound ludicrous at first glance, but i assure you it is not.

Current staff block potential lie's around 50% (with BoR + anvils imo?)

So even with 100% they are unable to reach cap spell block.

They could pottentially go for 175% spell block (lazwar + rainbows) but even then it will max out at around 60% (losing anvils base block%) and sacrifice a lot to get this buff. (which is perfectly fine in itself)

The second change should be inside the passive tree.

Clusters of nodes that provide buffs specifically to 2-hand users.

They should be a min of 8 nodes length and at the edge of the passive tree(like the claws/dagger clusters are located at edges) this will ensure the abuse is minimal for other builds.

The final node in these clusters could give a big EHP buff to 2-hand users. These should be balanced so they don't get abused, something like

Steel veins

+24% physical damage while using 2-handers

+15% MORE defense value's (works for both armor and evasion)

+15% MORE hp

A very substantial buff to whoever takes this node, however making it only accessible after 8 points investments, while being at the edge of the passive tree makes it a very hard trade-off for non 2-hand users.

I hope the people reading this now what i am trying to achieve with this, i never believed the dps of 2-handers is what makes people decide to go 1-hand + shield.

It is merely the overwhelming lack of survivability combined with desync etc that forces the use of a shield on people.

Peace,

-Boem-

(hope you enjoyed the read)

In a sense I agree, however the idea of adding life to 2h nodes is not very tasteful to be as you all have realised, 2h builds do get more life.

The idea of "max res implicits" as I've seen really doesn't follow any sort of past mod and doesn't fit in.

I suggest a passive notable cluster that means every time you hit with a 2h weapon, you get a stacking buff that increases armour by 20% stacking up to 5 times. This could also be improved to a "Endurance Charges" mechanism that doesn't allow Immortal Call. Call it juggernaut or some X-Men shit and maybe have stacking damage bonuses as well.

I think this is honestly the most elegant solution and can be improved on, as I say - DPS is not an issue, life is not an issue, auxilliary defenses are and something along these lines is acceptable and doesn't require a complete rework.

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Tommie_Sjukskriven wrote:

2H is viable, at 10k hp and insane damage,

well, every build is viable with mirrored, BiS gear. can you even get 10k life without legacy kaom's etc...

the question is if all you have is 3 ex, which gives you the stronger build ?

and right now, it's definitely 1H+block.

edit: oh wait, i think i misinterpreted your comment...

Chundadragon, you are imo switching cause and result.

Yes 2-hand builds do get more hp.

But not because it is FUN to do so, they have to do so because the current game does not allow anything else to be done with 2-hand builds.

I have seen many people go "2-hands are fine, just get kaoms"

And i facepalm everytime i read that.

Also there is no "baseline" for adding life to 2-hand nodes to be viewed as a "bad" or "inappropriate" solution, GGG creates the base-line and they do with it as they please.

Our personal views of how a 2-hand build should work like are irrelevant to GGG possible solutions.

We get the dice and have to roll with them (or not).

Here is why i propose what i propose,

Wanna go full apeshit all out HP and get like 13k hp. Fuck man, why not? You will kill slow compared to ranged anywayz(= being a melee) and you will have lower dps compared to the builds running 7k hp and investing in other interesting nodes.

It's a trade-off allowing more EHP for these builds. Now you create options for people (= what makes the game interesting imo?)

The only option people have now = stack hp and get belly or kaoms + RT.

(meh we had this discussion before and it also resulted in "yah man get a kaoms and 2-handers are fine" in short summary, which i find a ridicules baseline to start from)

Peace,

-Boem-

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Boem wrote:

But not because it is FUN to do so, they have to do so because the current game does not allow anything else to be done with 2-hand builds.

Yes I agree with that actually, however I'd argue that 1h + shield builds are exactly the same but with the addition of block. If you suggest you take anything other than all the life you can get for a 1h + shield build in a HC league, you will get laughed at. (Maybe you can go CI Aegis but that's kinda different)

So something along the lines of cool passive notables to allow 2h to spec into more would be pretty ideal.

I'm not muddling any cause and effect, that's just how you build life based melee.