Daggers.. #1 in dps... #1 in crit... #1 in passive tree... am I missing something?

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Chundadragon wrote:

Well yeh, none of the top ladder players in new leagues especially in HC are using daggers atm so that should tell you something - it's broken good but only when you are established.

Think of it as a treat for accumulating the gear together, because make no mistake - it's good because it's expensive.

Just wait til more binos are found in the new leagues. Of course 5 days after the patch there isn't many good daggers out there.

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Krayken wrote:

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Chundadragon wrote:

Well yeh, none of the top ladder players in new leagues especially in HC are using daggers atm so that should tell you something - it's broken good but only when you are established.

Think of it as a treat for accumulating the gear together, because make no mistake - it's good because it's expensive.

Just wait til more binos are found in the new leagues. Of course 5 days after the patch there isn't many good daggers out there.

Exactly my point. Gl trying to start out with daggers, gl trying self-found, people are level 92+ now without having touched one.

This discussion has no point.
So what if the daggers are very powerful? Go and play daggers then... Is there someone forbidding you from playing daggers?

Be like a water my friend...

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Chundadragon wrote:

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Krayken wrote:

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Chundadragon wrote:

Well yeh, none of the top ladder players in new leagues especially in HC are using daggers atm so that should tell you something - it's broken good but only when you are established.

Think of it as a treat for accumulating the gear together, because make no mistake - it's good because it's expensive.

Just wait til more binos are found in the new leagues. Of course 5 days after the patch there isn't many good daggers out there.

Exactly my point. Gl trying to start out with daggers, gl trying self-found, people are level 92+ now without having touched one.

Many of those 92+ are probably planning to get a dagger and reroll. Guess why? Because they're op compared to other weapons. You sound like a dagger user afraid of a nerf. Give me a good reason why daggers should have better dps potential than 2 handers.

Imo 2 handers needs a 15%'ish (+/- 5%) buff to base damage and/or a +1 range buff. Another way to improve 2 handers is giving them a flat % chance to parry (12% maybe?) or counterattack when hit.

Just came back to POE, havent played in awhile... but I rarely saw ppl with 2 handers on cruel+ and most of them were probably ranged anyway (spectral throw).

(This on hardcore ofcourse, dps vs survival balance is irellevant on softcore)

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Krayken wrote:

Many of those 92+ are probably planning to get a dagger and reroll. Guess why? Because they're op compared to other weapons. You sound like a dagger user afraid of a nerf. Give me a good reason why daggers should have better dps potential than 2 handers.

You people are so melodramatic, I couldn't care less if daggers got nerfed. I play temp leagues, I don't expect anything to last. In fact, I hope daggers get nerfed so I can play something else *snooze*

I simply point out the facts, I know for a FACT that the top 5 are not using daggers nor plan to.

Why? Because, you won't believe this guys... but other builds exist.

Shockwave Totem, Raging Spirits, Flameblast, Freeze Pulse, Ice-Shot, Split Arrow, Ephixa is playin perma-curser as always... need I go on? Just watch the streams if you're not convinced.

Havoc just acquired a 6L for his Shockwave Totem and he could have easily spent it on a dagger but he didn't because oh... holy shit guys... OTHER BUILDS EXIST. Saying everyone plans on getting a dagger and rerolling just sounds ridiculous and hilarious.

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Chundadragon wrote:

Shockwave Totem, Raging Spirits, Flameblast, Freeze Pulse, Ice-Shot, Split Arrow, Ephixa is playin perma-curser as always... need I go on? Just watch the streams if you're not convinced.

Lets see.... not melee, not melee, not melee, not melee, not melee, not melee, and... not melee


You didn't list one single melee build in a thread completely dedicated towards melee. The comparison wasn't Raging spirits vs. daggers, it was daggers vs. mace/sword/staff/axe.....

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Tygerwoody wrote:

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Chundadragon wrote:

Shockwave Totem, Raging Spirits, Flameblast, Freeze Pulse, Ice-Shot, Split Arrow, Ephixa is playin perma-curser as always... need I go on? Just watch the streams if you're not convinced.

Lets see.... not melee, not melee, not melee, not melee, not melee, not melee, and... not melee


You didn't list one single melee build in a thread completely dedicated towards melee. The comparison wasn't Raging spirits vs. daggers, it was daggers vs. mace/sword/staff/axe.....

Then please don't say #1 in the passive tree, #1 in crit... you suggest something far more universal. Last time I checked not everyone played melee.

A suitable title would be "Daggers.. #1 in melee", sorry if that doesn't sound as impressive.

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MaxTheLimit wrote:

I think I can get behind the concept of daggers being overpowered. Maybe not as drastically as some suggest, but I can see the math of the tree, and the mods daggers can get, and I can see the inherent power.

That being said, are we suggesting daggers be nerfed, or that 2h be buffed? I'm thinking a combination of both could be the best route. That way the changes can be smaller. Very small nerf to daggers, so people using daggers don't lose their minds, and a small buff to 2h, so people who want to use 2h builds can feel a bit better they aren't just shooting themselves in the foot by doing so.

I think ( and it may just be me ) that the larger the change to 2h or dagger, the more people will get upset.

Either they should do it right or they as well could just leave it as it is as those kind of minor changes won't make up for the large supriority of high base crit dagger in the endgame. Its not only about daggers vs 2 hands: Dagger vs 1h axe, 1h sword, 1h mace is out of balance as well. 2hand weapons probably need some base design overhauls like more range or any special thing.

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Chundadragon wrote:

Well yeh, none of the top ladder players in new leagues especially in HC are using daggers atm so that should tell you something - it's broken good but only when you are established.

Think of it as a treat for accumulating the gear together, because make no mistake - it's good because it's expensive.

As a matter of fact it is that expansive as it is overpowered and a large number of ppl are opting for dagger charackters. What the top 5 guys in any league play is of none importance in this matter. Being top 5 is a matter of 24/7 grinding basically. Alot of builds are enabling to do this.

This has been apparent for a loooooooong time now. I really wish GGG would address it, now that they re worked the Shadow tree. This face planting 1 button herp derp dagger shit is old. Only down side to playing dagger is reflect and even then its manageable. The whole concept of CI and melee on full just amplifies the problem here.

As for 2h'rs ya we have the short end of the stick. We're left grabbing shitty uniques or traveling clear across the tree for acrobatics-phase acrobatics for some form of mitigation. Because without rolling that RNG dice there's nothing else. Idea of a 2h'r is to have so much life that you can tank hits. Or mobility/evasion to avoid said hits. Way it stands now criticals shit on that life pool, you have no shield, you're not as mobile as you'd need to be and your damage doesn't offset the negatives.

Think Barb vs Caster in Diablo2, high hp, high dmg, high mobility. That's what 2h is/should be. Not relying on RNG dodge rolls and legacy Kaoms to avoid 1shots from a critical. Which ironically having 13k hp (pre patches) still got you 1hit. If you aren't 1hit you're scrapping the bottom of your hp pool. Now that criticals AND hp/es got toned down, you're dealing with the same thing just smaller numbers. Then to go and re-work the shadow tree was almost contradicting. Nerf daggers or lower critical multiplier/chance further.

2H'rs need a range buff first and foremost. That would be a good start. Its also been noted many times that this isn't just about dagger vs 2h, dagger simply > every melee weapon type for pvm and pvp. Daggers by nature/design > casters, 2h and bow in pvp. It just so happens being 1h/shield at least offers a legitimate form of mitigation against the dagger retard-ism while pvping. While 2h is left RNGing against daggers,molten shell,spells of all types...etc..etc..etc.. "Did I live? Did I dodge? Is he dead? Did I get 1shot?" If GGG wants to make this game more skill based and/or balanced. Daggers and critical chance/multiplier would be the first step in doing so spanning from pvm all the way to the lesser popular pvp.

Dagger is lazy, over powered and trivializes the whole "challenge" of POE in every facet.