Daggers.. #1 in dps... #1 in crit... #1 in passive tree... am I missing something?

the opness of daggers are one of those things who seem to belong to poe, since ggg never showed intentions to change that.

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polimeris wrote:

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missuse wrote:

heres a top of the head build I scrambled around in 2 min for a crit 2h:

staff build

life 177%
dmg with staff 406%
acc rating 152%
staff block 19%
staff attack speed: 16%
staff crit chance: 392%

I am sure this can be a lot better with optimization

now heres my pretty much fully optimized dagger build

life 174%
dmg with daggers 288%
acc rating: 32%
shield block: 28%
attack speed: 53%
crit chance 410%
crit multi: 146%

what I can I note from this is that with daggers I get 9% more block from tree, more than 100% less phys dmg, and a lot more crit multi compared to staves. Since staves can have more dmg (top staves have over 800 pdPS while top daggers go up to 550) I am pretty sure the 2h crit build dmg output is far larger than dagger dmg output.

Furthermore with staves I can put on a kaom and have 400 (900 for legacy) base life and still have a 6L while with daggers I need a 6L chest.

I understand that thisthread was aimed at the Uber capable crit dagger-low life CoE-ST builds, but these builds utilized a lot more mechanics to be OP then just daggers.

The staff build needs abyssus to make sense, since you have no crit multiplier. It also implies using either spectral throw or flicker strike since you will KB somewhat often.
The dagger build linked is one with a shield. Which implies a ton of defense not mentionned.

We could both nitpick on a ton of things (item, curses, implicits, etc). But there is one huge difference between these two build:
One has approximately 8 times more survivability than the other. And if the dagger build uses Abyssus too, it's not even funny how much it would crush the staff output into oblivion.

edit: However, I am certainly against a dagger nerf. This game is already enough of a pain in the neck to warrant this kind of nerf.
I am fine with right side being better damage wise. But I am extremely angry at left side being extremely boring and with microscopic utility.

cirt multiplier can be obtained with gloves, amulet and support gem, not just on tree.

tree multiplier (126 in my case) is about a 3rd of my overall crit multipler without abyssus. This is compensated easily with the much higher %dmg from tree with 2h staves from my example (bit over 400 as opposed to 280&).

I am quite sure crit staves can get higher dps than crit daggers the problem is as your rightfully say the lack of shield defenses which really make 2h inferior. But I don't think simply boosting 2h dmg will do the trick. Perhaps adding some 2h only melee skills/support gems/key stones that would make it appealing to use this sort of weps again.

EDIT: imagine if multistrike and splash were 2h only support gems. Then 1h users would complain.

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EDIT: imagine if multistrike and splash were 2h only support gems. Then 1h users would complain.

I agree melee splash would make sense. And since reave exists it wouldn't be that dramatic. In the best of world that would even be great for the game, but realistically the game can't undergo enough mechanic change fast enough.
That's why I really see no reason for a nerf. But a big buff on the left (and even better not just a dumb number buff) ? Most definitely warranted.

I tried to give two hander an honest shot this league. got to level 70 in 3 days

i do 19k dps double strikes 10k cleaves and 7k leap slams (all 4l) on a 340dps 2 hander

7 frenzy charges.

(btw frenzy with 7 frenzy charges does 2k less than double strike ... hey ggg that's fucked up)

then i meet a guy with two ungis gultch daggers doing 25k dps double strikes with melee splash. and im like .. what the hell?

he then told me he was using them as a joke and his real build is a 40k dps molten strike with a 170k dps dagger and a perandus shield .

all the while im like why did i make a 2 hander build.

I know for a fact that my 2 hander build wont be map capable just on the fact that i cant stack enough defenses to make up for the loss of that free block , life , resists and armor/es/evasion on a shield .

and now im farming docks for masters while leveling a summoner on an alt account in which the bloody zombies will have 70 block chance with bone offering and 3 timez my hp pool.

and that is one zombie.

2 handers are in a bad spot. and daggers are ridiculous all crit weapons are. everyone i know is rolling crit.

even my mate who is building a bow build .. is using a dagger to level up ... what .. the heck is that?

Love how people talk about 2h while they only mean and talk about stave.

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missuse wrote:

So I agree 2h need some love, but its really not the lack of dps, it the fact this dps increase can not overcome the loss of block.

exactly.

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missuse wrote:

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polimeris wrote:

*SNIP*

cirt multiplier can be obtained with gloves, amulet and support gem, not just on tree.

tree multiplier (126 in my case) is about a 3rd of my overall crit multipler without abyssus. This is compensated easily with the much higher %dmg from tree with 2h staves from my example (bit over 400 as opposed to 280&).

I am quite sure crit staves can get higher dps than crit daggers the problem is as your rightfully say the lack of shield defenses which really make 2h inferior. But I don't think simply boosting 2h dmg will do the trick. Perhaps adding some 2h only melee skills/support gems/key stones that would make it appealing to use this sort of weps again.

EDIT: imagine if multistrike and splash were 2h only support gems. Then 1h users would complain.

Run your own numbers please.

From the tree itself if the staff sits at around 100% damage the dagger will be at 160%. Not to mention that the staff one will knockback very often and they're less tanky.

The ~820 pdps from a staff is <150% of the ~560 pdps of a dagger.

And you know what the coolest part about a dagger is? If the damage isn't enough you can just use a 2nd dagger too: 10% MORE attackspeed, 20% MORE physical dps and you would still have more block chance than with a staff.

Now take a look at the other 2-handed weapons - how are they doing?

I beg to differ 2H mace has the best passives and if you go the perma-stunner way you just have to add 6 or 7 stun nodes on tree. It won't compare to a dagger crit build in DPS but still has very good DPS and huge survivability. The only build where you can solo pretty much every map/ boss easily. Plus you can use 6L setup for both AoE and single attack skills.

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Aelloon wrote:

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missuse wrote:

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polimeris wrote:

*SNIP*

cirt multiplier can be obtained with gloves, amulet and support gem, not just on tree.

tree multiplier (126 in my case) is about a 3rd of my overall crit multipler without abyssus. This is compensated easily with the much higher %dmg from tree with 2h staves from my example (bit over 400 as opposed to 280&).

I am quite sure crit staves can get higher dps than crit daggers the problem is as your rightfully say the lack of shield defenses which really make 2h inferior. But I don't think simply boosting 2h dmg will do the trick. Perhaps adding some 2h only melee skills/support gems/key stones that would make it appealing to use this sort of weps again.

EDIT: imagine if multistrike and splash were 2h only support gems. Then 1h users would complain.

Run your own numbers please.

From the tree itself if the staff sits at around 100% damage the dagger will be at 160%. Not to mention that the staff one will knockback very often and they're less tanky.

The ~820 pdps from a staff is <150% of the ~560 pdps of a dagger.

And you know what the coolest part about a dagger is? If the damage isn't enough you can just use a 2nd dagger too: 10% MORE attackspeed, 20% MORE physical dps and you would still have more block chance than with a staff.

Now take a look at the other 2-handed weapons - how are they doing?

I have a clan mate that has a mirrored 2h axe. He is using it in a RT build. He sits at 69k cyclone. I have a mirrored dagger and my reave is 140 k with auras. We both have very high survivability. Guess what, when we map he clears most shit before I get my reave charges up.

Ive bought my former diamond rings from a guy who had one of the best crit/staff builds. He had over 120k cyclone which is almost double than Tommy (my before mentioned clan mate has).

What numbers should I run? I posted two builds, a fully optimized dagger life build with block and the first crit stave build I could come up with 180% life. Check them out. Do number crunching, I am sure the stave will be at least at 820/560 = 1,46 more dps compared to daggers with those builds. DPS is not the issue, its the fact that in the Atziri patch everyone copied dagger ST low life builds since they could run high dps and a lot of auras and obliterate uber.

I don't understand why people complain about things being overpowered. If they are so what, play something that suits you. What does it matter what someone else's build is?