Daggers.. #1 in dps... #1 in crit... #1 in passive tree... am I missing something?
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Keep complaining about them being too good and they get nerfed. :(
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There is only two ways to increase your damage in a significant way in this game:
-: more multipliers -: critical strikes Every class has access to approximately the same multipliers. The West Side of tree has only a small amount of critical nodes. Which is the same as nothing since crit chance and crit mult work multiplicatively. I wouldn't say daggers are the ultimate weapons. You can do some crazy stuff with wands, bows and thrusting swords. And claws have some flavour too. What's crazy is that the east side is more and more of a no-brainer area while the west side is stuck in pre-alpha stages. But it's actually not that crazy: Using critical strikes is a huge investment. If 2 handed weapons and stregth weapons were to be as powerfull as the others, it would be at a lower skill point cost since the only interesting node is RT. I see some solutions to this problem, but they all require lot of work: -: make critical strikes less damaging but more flavourfull (more King of the Hill, Adder's touch effect). -: double the power of damage nodes in the west side of the tree. Then tweak. -: give 2 handed weapons an additional bonus like dual wielding. Something like 50% more area. -: change the strength attacks to make them visibly better than dex attacks or/and add utility. For example, sweep now has a 50-80% chance to repell projectiles. -: change the weapons specific nodes to be more powerfull and more flavourfull. Vorpal blades comes to mind. -: all of the above. | |
" I don't know about thrusting swords.... And as far as people pointing out that the "west side" of the tree has as much passives as the "east side". You guys do realize that the west side are utilized by dagger builds as well right? So all those 1 hander crit passives you see on the west side(that aren't weapon specific) are being used by daggers. Meanwhile, the east side does NOT have crit passives near the daggers that swords/maces/axes can use. Daggers get to basically "double dip" in that way. Also add the fact they have the highest amount of crit chance in the game making it even more bazaar. What would solve a lot is making the nodes on the west side of the tree all weapon specific or "axe, sword, blunt" only. |
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heres a top of the head build I scrambled around in 2 min for a crit 2h:
staff build life 177% dmg with staff 406% acc rating 152% staff block 19% staff attack speed: 16% staff crit chance: 392% I am sure this can be a lot better with optimization now heres my pretty much fully optimized dagger build life 174% dmg with daggers 288% acc rating: 32% shield block: 28% attack speed: 53% crit chance 410% crit multi: 146% what I can I note from this is that with daggers I get 9% more block from tree, more than 100% less phys dmg, and a lot more crit multi compared to staves. Since staves can have more dmg (top staves have over 800 pdPS while top daggers go up to 550) I am pretty sure the 2h crit build dmg output is far larger than dagger dmg output. Furthermore with staves I can put on a kaom and have 400 (900 for legacy) base life and still have a 6L while with daggers I need a 6L chest. I understand that thisthread was aimed at the Uber capable crit dagger-low life CoE-ST builds, but these builds utilized a lot more mechanics to be OP then just daggers. items shop: 364086 ign: [ICU]missuse if you like to HLD, add me inactive in game atm, PM me if you need something. Last edited by missuse on Aug 25, 2014, 6:58:18 AM
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Crit builds also take more point investment than others to fully capitalize on that power.
Daggers are supposed to be the most crit worthy weapons so it makes perfect sense for them to scale the best from it. Would you rather have wands (the ranged crit) be the best? Would that make more sense than the melee one? | |
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[Removed by Support]
Look on my works ye mighty, and despair. Harvest league oh you are beautiful. Last edited by Simon_GGG on Aug 25, 2014, 3:48:15 PM
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Daggers are rididiculously op and it is the same way ridiculous that nothing has changed about it in 1.2. This is not about low-life/ST. Dagger are still heavily op by themselves compared to other melee weapons. Ambushers have too high attack speed, loath bane should have round about 370-430 dps instead of 560 in the current metagame of crits dominating everything.
The highest mirro dagger has even more dps than the highest mirror sword/axe and it has the higher base crit chance. It doesn't help it at all that wands and claws are equally stong - the whole left side of the tree is not (axes, maces, swords). They are all at the right side of the tree. The access of daggers to damage nodes in the passive tree is even better than the access of axes/swords to damage nodes at the left side. Sword damage nodes have been spread out all over the tree. " Wtf do you want? Maybe that a 20 ex dagger build stays forever as good as a 500 ex axe/sword build? And a 500 ex dagger build stay 2-3 times as good as a 500 ex build with weapons from the left side of the tree? It is not that difficult. Daggers need a base dps nerf that they compensate with crit. Claws as well, what these compensate with LL. Wands need to be included as well. There is simply no reason for letting these weapons having the same dps (claws are only about 5% weaker than swords/daggers/axes, which is by far not enough) while they have these benefits that the other weapons don't have. 18% accuracy on swords, 10% ele damage on maces and nothing on axes is ridiculous. Last edited by LSN on Aug 25, 2014, 7:21:23 AM
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" What people tend to overlooks is what tier of weapons should the dmg output be balanced at. Should it be BiS tier where u have loath bane and the likes or mid-solid tier that most of the players can aim obtain in the 3 months leagues. Imo it should be balanced around what most players can enjoy and play and not 10% of the richest std guys. The dmg output of daggers should be higher than other 1h simply coz they are crit. If you want a crit 1h melee build u use a dagger. You get less hp/block/armor since u invest more in dps. If you want a more tanky build u go for RT and use any 1h u want, you get less dmg output coz u dont invest in shit like acc or crit chance or multy u just have two things to scale dmg off, but u gain more points to invest in survivability. Whats the problem with that? items shop: 364086 ign: [ICU]missuse if you like to HLD, add me inactive in game atm, PM me if you need something. Last edited by missuse on Aug 25, 2014, 7:39:01 AM
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" 10% phys and 30% crit I can't speak for, way too much math, but 10% phys and 3% As is nowhere near twice as effective as 12% phys. It's at it's best when you have no nodes /strength (highest relative returns) and that's about a 1% damage lead over 12% phys. 1.12*1.03 =/= 2*(1.12) (Anf yes that's the actual baseline relative damage of those two nodes) 1) Fast wepaons get far too much flat affix damage 2) Left side has jack-shit for crit Fixing those fixes daggers. Dagger implicit (once you hit like 400% crit) accounts for like 5% DPS. IGN - PlutoChthon, Talvathir
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" The staff build needs abyssus to make sense, since you have no crit multiplier. It also implies using either spectral throw or flicker strike since you will KB somewhat often. The dagger build linked is one with a shield. Which implies a ton of defense not mentionned. We could both nitpick on a ton of things (item, curses, implicits, etc). But there is one huge difference between these two build: One has approximately 8 times more survivability than the other. And if the dagger build uses Abyssus too, it's not even funny how much it would crush the staff output into oblivion. edit: However, I am certainly against a dagger nerf. This game is already enough of a pain in the neck to warrant this kind of nerf. I am fine with right side being better damage wise. But I am extremely angry at left side being extremely boring and with microscopic utility. Last edited by polimeris on Aug 25, 2014, 7:58:31 AM
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