Daggers.. #1 in dps... #1 in crit... #1 in passive tree... am I missing something?

"

phoenix4dota wrote:

"

missuse wrote:

Nice dagger, where can I mirror it?

just google the name of it and u'll c

"

Spysong192 wrote:

"

MullaXul wrote:

Buff 2h weapon range on the base items. It only makes sense for 2h to out range other melee weapon types.Nerf dagger base DMG and see how things play out.

+2 range buff to every 2h melee weapon.
% base Nerf to dagger class weapons that effects existing ones as well. To avoid legacy daggers.

I'd start there, I think its enough. Adding 2h physical DMG/HP combo nodes would be the next logical response.

@range topic

Fun fact; 1h sword has same range as 2h sword (range 6), staff has range 6 and one-hand-thrust 7 range (the highest range, same as 2h axe)

Exactly, buff to 2h range is a no brainer and it should be +2 minimum.

Crit is broke and it makes daggers OP. How to fix this?

1. Change the way crit mult works
Currently, crit multiplier = 150% * (1 + increased_crit_damage_percent).
It makes "+50%" crit damage turn into +75% crit damage. It's kinda strange and over the years of closed/open beta there has been a lot of nerfs to crit damage mods and nodes to try and mitigate this. The proper solution should have been to change the crit formula:
crit multiplier = 50% + (1 + increased_crit_damage_percent). Which is the same as making %crit damage mods additive to the base 150%.

2. Review dagger tree nodes
Daggers already have better base crit chance than most other melee weapons. Then you gave them so much crit in the tree to multiply this advantage, plus implicit on the daggers themselves, then we're in the intelligence zone so let's get power charges which make good crit chance into awesome crit chance... holy cow.
Crit in the tree (in large numbers and with a good base chance) is better than %damage nodes because those are additive only and you already get %damage from gem levels, strength and so on. The crit chance/damage are also additive but multiply each other for some sick synergy. So yeah, review dagger crit nodes and sources of crit in general, because this thing is out of control.

"

phoenix4dota wrote:

"

missuse wrote:

Nice dagger, where can I mirror it?

I am pretty sure its a RMT offered only dagger. But enough are around so u can buy it from another player. They pop up on poe xyz from time to time. I bought it from dragnmith1 for 180 ex a while back.

"

Tygerwoody wrote:

Any chance GGG might respond to this?

Hahahahahahhahahahahahaa, good joke bro.

"

LSN wrote:

What the top 5 guys in any league play is of none importance in this matter. Being top 5 is a matter of 24/7 grinding basically. Alot of builds are enabling to do this.

The top 5 are determined by the builds/synergy in parties that have the best clear speed and are mapping - there are plenty of people who play 24/7 who are level 70 and making alts.

In the end of the day, DPS, crit, damage - it's all about killing shit the fastest. It's 100% related to who's at the top.

Some Basic Thoughts
The total DPS output of an attack is determined by:
1. chance to hit
2. attack speed (APS)
3. damage
4. crit chance
5. crit multiplier
(6. damage reduction from armor etc.)

What makes daggers currently so powerful is the fact that they have easier access to all of these modifiers than any other weapon type. Other weapon types have some more powerful notables but none has as many powerful ones as daggers all very close to the shadow starting area (so they can be reached with little point investment).


This leads to the question: What could be changed to improve weapon balance?
a) keep the focus on crit chance for daggers but lower one of their other stats like base damage or attack speed (weapon change) or crit multiplier or increased damage from the tree (passive change).
b) spread out the dagger nodes; maybe in a similar way as the sword ones
c) add some good twohand nodes or rework the existing ones
d) rework twohanders in general (skills, damage, range, mechanics, AOE(!))
e) rework the starting area for Marauder, Templar and Duelist


Personal Opinion:
Daggers feel a bit out of balance and i really believe that they should never be faster than Claws or Thrusting Swords. What really lifts daggers over any other weapon group is the the Adders touch notable, if the 66% crit multiplier was changed to maybe 33% crit chance, this would better distinguish them much better from thrusting swords.
Twohanders need some love since they feel like they should be able to achieve the highest possible DPS at the cost of lower survivability. Maybe give them an(other) overall damage boost, a falt 20% more melee physicl damage modifier and i'd really love to see some better AOE options like a small scale splash inherent to all twohand skills with increased area of effect added to some of the twohand exclusive passives.

It is not specifically the damage of two handers that is the issue.

no the issue is that daggers , bows , wands and anything with the word crit in it can do more or the same damage as the 2 hander without sacrificing defense

crit bows builds are the best at off screening things in the game and often have movmentspeed to boot.

wanders get a shield and all the fun mods that come with it.

daggers get block either by dual wielding or by using a sheild .


having a shield alone is huge , forget block, that is SIX MODS that 2 handers dont get, with six mods i could get 40 resist all life or have a chest armors worth of defense .

that kind of stuff is huge . Why does the one build type in the game that has to be in the thick of it , get the least amount of stats?

absurd.

hell id be happy if i could wear a quiver on the back of my leap slammer , atleast then i wouldnt need to over pay for super rings and gear just so i dont get one shot by the still stupidy high elemental dps of maps .

also 2 handers need the same base attack speed of one handers.

the fastest 2 hander should be just as fast as the fastest 1 hander. or we will keeping going in circles over the scaling of flat damage on gear and auras. this needs to happen.

or there needs to be a damage multi on all 2 handers

"

Saltychipmunk wrote:

also 2 handers need the same base attack speed of one handers.

the fastest 2 hander should be just as fast as the fastest 1 hander. or we will keeping going in circles over the scaling of flat damage on gear and auras. this needs to happen.

or there needs to be a damage multi on all 2 handers

Quick fix: Give everything 1.0 AS.

Massively increase AS on tree.

"

Saltychipmunk wrote:

having a shield alone is huge , forget block, that is SIX MODS that 2 handers dont get, with six mods i could get 40 resist all life or have a chest armors worth of defense .

that kind of stuff is huge . Why does the one build type in the game that has to be in the thick of it , get the least amount of stats?

I'm not arguing about any balance here but you are forgetting the uhhh.. 6 links you can get which 1h users cannot which allows you to use Kaom's Heart without DPS loss.