Stop spreading the Evasion vs Armor fallacy

The other elephant in the room is that evasion works against all damage types, only being bypassed by spells, while armor only mitigates physical damage.

While all of the OPs points are more or less correct, there is a character discrepancy.

A marauder and its two nearest friends in the passive tree have some great passives with 10% elemental resist or more, stacks of life and lifebonus passives and the flask improvement + critical reduction etc.

A ranger on the other hand has boring +8% nodes in the area and a lot of evade/dodge/block etc. Dodge and block ARE RNG. Having access to the shadow tree will give a bit more life and so will rubbing the duelist, third and most obvious choise is physical damage rangers stacking strenght nodes. The fact remains that the character most relying on the RNG passives and evasion are the most life-starved class in the game. Even witches have a better spot with templar nearby (templars starting area is btw. the clearly best defensive starting point in the passive tree regarding life. A bit ironic given marauders supposedly being the melee brawlers)!

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radiatoren wrote:

While all of the OPs points are more or less correct, there is a character discrepancy.

A marauder and its two nearest friends in the passive tree have some great passives with 10% elemental resist or more, stacks of life and lifebonus passives and the flask improvement + critical reduction etc.

A ranger on the other hand has boring +8% nodes in the area and a lot of evade/dodge/block etc. Dodge and block ARE RNG. Having access to the shadow tree will give a bit more life and so will rubbing the duelist, third and most obvious choise is physical damage rangers stacking strenght nodes. The fact remains that the character most relying on the RNG passives and evasion are the most life-starved class in the game. Even witches have a better spot with templar nearby (templars starting area is btw. the clearly best defensive starting point in the passive tree regarding life. A bit ironic given marauders supposedly being the melee brawlers)!

That much is all true, except block can easily reach a flat 75%, which while 'random' in the unscientific sense -- it is a strong defense when used with armor and/or evasion.

The real source is likely

1. less critical damage taken for Marauder -- this is huge
2. More easily available resists (it's painful to get resists early as Shadow/Ranger); after having played Marauder for so long, you can easily tell how squishy the other classes are by not having that early crystal skin and +30% fire resist.
3. More available % life regen (this greatly boosts recovery in conjunction with life stacking and flask use)
4. Regular consistent damage with RT or BM (there's nobody running out of resources mid-fight or missing that crucial blow)

There are lots of factors effecting the defensiveness of all the classes in the game right now, but the focus of this thread is purely debunking the nature of evasion, I didn't want to start a whole thread on defensiveness, as that's too big to talk about right now, plus I don't have any math to back up my claims right now. And it's hard to show my points with class-builds executed on the beta server... due to unscientific ways to test characters.

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fevgatos wrote:

That's the RNG used in a lot of games. It's actually chance based, but each succesive hit that you dont evade increase the chance that you will evade the next one, until it reaches 100%.

Each succesive hit that you dont evade do not increase the chance you will evade the next one, the hit you will evade is already decided before you even get hit once, yes it brings you closer to evading a hit, but nothing to do with chance/random, once again the only random part is where you start in the chain of Hit, Hit, Hit, Hit, Evade and go back to start. (20% evasion)

Most complaints against defense systems, I find, come from the build in question lacking a total defense. You can't just stack one defense rating and expect to win. We have:

Life / regen / leech
ES
An avoidance defense rating (EV), arrow dodging
A reduction defense rating (AR), endurance charges
Block
Resists
Defensive curses
Defensive control abilities
....... and on and on.

I can almost always pin a survivability problem on something simple. The person with a survivability problem didn't stack enough kinds of defense. It's rather predictable.

Oh, and by the way anubite, one big reason this untruth holds onto life (and it irritates me too!) is that kripp keeps saying it: "pure evasion blows without iron reflex". He keeps saying it. Grrr.

Kripp is stubborn too, he won't be convinced until someone is top on the HC ladder with an evasion build.

Byrr, you need to go pure evasion right now!!!

So what is it then?

High armor reduces critdmg?

I'll play devil's advocate for one comment... maybe it's been said, but I'm too lazy to read everything.

There are 2 significant disadvantages to Evasion compared to Armour.

1) Evading hits just doesn't work as well as getting damage reduction because of how life regen and life from flask works. It's easier to heal back from multiple consecutive smaller hits than occasional strong hit.

2) The evasion soft cap preventing high investments in this defense. I hate it with a passion. Give me the possibility to get 75% or so chance to evade, please. That would fix so much problems...

armor isn't going to help u much when u get crit (by a strong mob)

/thread



also take into account arrow dodging and the fact that all the armor you could ever possibly need comes fro ma armor mod granite flask.

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ampdecay wrote:

No with evasion every other hit will miss, the evasion roll isnt for every incoming hit, its based on an entropy counter. if you take a hit that counter goes up until it reaches the chance to evade at which point it will start over.

Your discounting their accuracy roll, its perfectly possible for a high level mob with good accuracy to land many hits in a row, if his first rolls low and hits, his second rolls higher and hits, his third rolls higher still - hits again

Granted your guaranteed a dodge at some point, but its not as black and white as 1 in 3 or anything close, and thats just a single mob. Now multiply that by say 5 for a pack of accurate archers, and suddenly having 0% DR means almost instant death.

Pure evasion is not viable endgame - period

Pure Armour is viable, tough to pull off, but viable nonetheless.

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Thalandor wrote:

2) The evasion soft cap preventing high investments in this defense. I hate it with a passion. Give me the possibility to get 75% or so chance to evade, please. That would fix so much problems...

There was a patch back in CB when I played when they changed the calculations for evasion, my 62% evade suddnely morphed into a high 70s chance, and suddenly the pure evasion build I was testing became worthwhile, then they reverted back a mere few weeks later and it was poo again. Basically evasion as a pure defense without IR is a death sentence in endgame even with tons of health.