And, I'm sorry but : you're totally missing the point, I don't give a penny about invasion here, it's about video showing a boss ( that is in all leagues ) being over-powered, and its mechanisms, from the very start.
And considering that this boss is being over-powered in a no mods area in standard, it's perfectly relevant to speak about this context since it's gonna be true in invasion also.
Now, you can keep over-reacting about some invasion matter if you want .... if you actually like wasting your time ( because that's basically what it will be ).
You've completely missed the point about why people are pissed about this boss in Invasion. As far as I can tell, this boss can spawn literally anytime from normal to Merciless. The only way to survive her is to utilize a CWDT IC setup, which basically no one has till the end of Merciless unless you just straight up get lucky. When you're gearing up, leveling, etc. and suddenly get insta one shotted off the screen in Cruel Act 3 Docks, then yes, people are going to get pissed.
People are going to especially get pissed when you say dumbshit like "it's Invasion, it's meant to kill people," especially when you don't, even, play, the, league.
http://youtu.be/5yZILGEQLf8?t=13m24s
There's more than 3 bosses in that video. Corpse Stich is in there, The Beheader, Impaler, and Maker of Rain. I wouldn't be surprised if GGG thought it be cute and threw in either Maker of Flood, Metal Smith, and Rima all at the same time along the other ones I just listed.
BTW some did the math on Reddit and Maker of Rain does about 1700 physical damage per each spike during the Rain. And do realize that shit falls down super fast. That's unmodded.
Last edited by allbusiness#6050 on Mar 13, 2014, 9:11:32 PM
This is going off topic again very fast. To respond to your post allbusiness. The issue is dismissing someones THEORYCRAFTING based on personal experience.
This is a fallacious argument, just attacking the person and not their argument.
If you are saying 'this is not possible because of "x"', as you did in your recent post about CWDT IC not being available, then that is better form of discussion. Because you are stating facts regarding the theorycrafting, albeit based on personal experience, but it is not something that can be disagreed on.
As I have said earlier though there are two questions on the table here.
Are the BOSSES too powerful, flat out, no matter what.
Or
Are the BOSSES too powerful for where they can appear in Invasion, given that you are required to farm for gear, and while farming you can run into the exact boss you are farming to be able to deal with in future.
I believe the actual argument is currently both. But the issue is some people are arguing point A, some point B. And then the people discussing point B are calling out the people discussing point A telling them they are wrong.
So lets make it more simple. THis thread is about Invasion league, it clearly is. So why don't the discussions such as Fruz's recent ones about the boss in general stick to informative posts about what the boss does, how it works, and what sort of thing is required to defeat it. And these points can then be discussed vs the ease of getting this gear/situation/link setup and how viable it is to action this at a moments notice (when vaal metalsmith appears from nowhere) as opposed to where you are expecting to fight him.
As a good example, imaging that devourer from orchard just appearing randomly anywhere. That would hurt. And it would be challenging to be prepared for that in all instances at all times
People are going to especially get pissed when you say dumbshit like "it's Invasion, it's meant to kill people," especially when you don't, even, play, the, league.
That could be relevant if I had said that in this thread.
I have also no met this boss yet in invasion and want to be prepared before I do.
"
Real_Wolf wrote:
I believe the actual argument is currently both. But the issue is some people are arguing point A, some point B. And then the people discussing point B are calling out the people discussing point A telling them they are wrong.
Exactly, I'm not talking about the boss as an invader, but just as a mob and how to fight him.
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
Last edited by Fruz#6137 on Mar 13, 2014, 9:14:24 PM
This is going off topic again very fast. To respond to your post allbusiness. The issue is dismissing someones THEORYCRAFTING based on personal experience.
This is a fallacious argument, just attacking the person and not their argument.
If you are saying 'this is not possible because of "x"', as you did in your recent post about CWDT IC not being available, then that is better form of discussion. Because you are stating facts regarding the theorycrafting, albeit based on personal experience, but it is not something that can be disagreed on.
As I have said earlier though there are two questions on the table here.
Are the BOSSES too powerful, flat out, no matter what.
Or
Are the BOSSES too powerful for where they can appear in Invasion, given that you are required to farm for gear, and while farming you can run into the exact boss you are farming to be able to deal with in future.
I believe the actual argument is currently both. But the issue is some people are arguing point A, some point B. And then the people discussing point B are calling out the people discussing point A telling them they are wrong.
So lets make it more simple. THis thread is about Invasion league, it clearly is. So why don't the discussions such as Fruz's recent ones about the boss in general stick to informative posts about what the boss does, how it works, and what sort of thing is required to defeat it. And these points can then be discussed vs the ease of getting this gear/situation/link setup and how viable it is to action this at a moments notice (when vaal metalsmith appears from nowhere) as opposed to where you are expecting to fight him.
As a good example, imaging that devourer from orchard just appearing randomly anywhere. That would hurt. And it would be challenging to be prepared for that in all instances at all times
It's not fallacious to dismiss a person's argument when they don't even have any first hand experience and have done literally no experiments, when the other person has actually experienced the event first hand multiple times, etc. This is especially true when the other person has yet to provide proof that they have first hand knowledge of actually encountering the boss, or at least enough experience behind them (and aren't hiding behind a hidden profile) to justify their theory. Theory from a person that is educated, has knowledge of game mechanics, etc. is fine. Theory from a person that has yet to ever reach end game content is just nonsense. For example, even if Kripparian has never encountered this boss, I would respect some of his theory because he has credentials to his name, he's played the game long enough to know most of the mechanics, and has hundreds of endgame content hours to his name. Clock and Fruz on the other hand, have yet to prove that they have ever encountered this boss (of which they likely haven't, because Clock hasn't even proven he plays Invasion, and Fruz probably won't see her unless it's the Vaal 79 map or right before Aztiri, as far as I know she doesn't spawn in corruption zones in Ambush).
You want me to be civil? Tell them to prove their credentials. Because right now the equivalent of what they are doing is arguing against a seasoned history professor about history while being an amateur reader of history books.
Substantially rebalanced Invasion bosses, including changing their abilities. Many of the more extreme ones are now easier and some of the weaker ones are harder. We've changed the behaviour of bosses that used to be able to kill you before you saw them. Some Corrupted Secret Area bosses were updated in this process also.
Increased the quantity and rarity of items dropped from Corrupted Secret Area and Invasion bosses.
Invasion bosses which are harder than average now drop increased rewards in higher difficulties based on their level of challenge.
There you go, Chaska is probably in there.
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
This is going off topic again very fast. To respond to your post allbusiness. The issue is dismissing someones THEORYCRAFTING based on personal experience.
This is a fallacious argument, just attacking the person and not their argument.
If you are saying 'this is not possible because of "x"', as you did in your recent post about CWDT IC not being available, then that is better form of discussion. Because you are stating facts regarding the theorycrafting, albeit based on personal experience, but it is not something that can be disagreed on.
As I have said earlier though there are two questions on the table here.
Are the BOSSES too powerful, flat out, no matter what.
Or
Are the BOSSES too powerful for where they can appear in Invasion, given that you are required to farm for gear, and while farming you can run into the exact boss you are farming to be able to deal with in future.
I believe the actual argument is currently both. But the issue is some people are arguing point A, some point B. And then the people discussing point B are calling out the people discussing point A telling them they are wrong.
So lets make it more simple. THis thread is about Invasion league, it clearly is. So why don't the discussions such as Fruz's recent ones about the boss in general stick to informative posts about what the boss does, how it works, and what sort of thing is required to defeat it. And these points can then be discussed vs the ease of getting this gear/situation/link setup and how viable it is to action this at a moments notice (when vaal metalsmith appears from nowhere) as opposed to where you are expecting to fight him.
As a good example, imaging that devourer from orchard just appearing randomly anywhere. That would hurt. And it would be challenging to be prepared for that in all instances at all times
It's not fallacious to dismiss a person's argument when they don't even have any first hand experience and have done literally no experiments, when the other person has actually experienced the event first hand multiple times, etc. This is especially true when the other person has yet to provide proof that they have first hand knowledge of actually encountering the boss, or at least enough experience behind them (and aren't hiding behind a hidden profile) to justify their theory. Theory from a person that is educated, has knowledge of game mechanics, etc. is fine. Theory from a person that has yet to ever reach end game content is just nonsense. For example, even if Kripparian has never encountered this boss, I would respect some of his theory because he has credentials to his name, he's played the game long enough to know most of the mechanics, and has hundreds of endgame content hours to his name. Clock and Fruz on the other hand, have yet to prove that they have ever encountered this boss (of which they likely haven't, because Clock hasn't even proven he plays Invasion, and Fruz probably won't see her unless it's the Vaal 79 map or right before Aztiri, as far as I know she doesn't spawn in corruption zones in Ambush).
You want me to be civil? Tell them to prove their credentials. Because right now the equivalent of what they are doing is arguing against a seasoned history professor about history while being an amateur reader of history books.
I can understand considering a persons theory based on their game knowledge. I disagree on dismissing them based on their personal experience from theory. For example, I know I have far more mechanical knowledge about the game than a large number of people, despite not having ever had a character over level 90, and not having one over level 78 I think it was since CB (so not showing on my profile). This means that I have a very large knowledge base to put forward ideas about changes, how they effect the game, and builds (especially builds, while I don't have high level I have a lot of different builds I have tried over the years, rivalling most people I would say).
So while my discussion about end game maps is based on just theory, using my knowledge of game mechanics and second hand knowledge from others, it is still solid theory based on correct information. But at the same time discussing something such as how easy it is to maintain end game maps, this is all second hand knowledge (since we have no numbers for map drop calculations) so any conjecture I make on this is simply based on what others before me have said and no experience (And I tend to avoid discussing this because of this).
People saying 'here is how this could have gone better' are not to be discounted if they are correct. This is why I end up in these pointless arguments, normally. its not because I disagree about the conclusion, its because I disagree about disagreeing with someone simply because of their existing characters.
For the record aswell I do generally consider your input to be quite valid towards posts you make. I sometimes disagree with it, but your input is solid, just try to refrain from the fallacy relating to first hand experience, unless the person is saying "no, I can do this myself" and using first hand knowledge as their reasoning behind their arguments
This is going off topic again very fast. To respond to your post allbusiness. The issue is dismissing someones THEORYCRAFTING based on personal experience.
This is a fallacious argument, just attacking the person and not their argument.
If you are saying 'this is not possible because of "x"', as you did in your recent post about CWDT IC not being available, then that is better form of discussion. Because you are stating facts regarding the theorycrafting, albeit based on personal experience, but it is not something that can be disagreed on.
As I have said earlier though there are two questions on the table here.
Are the BOSSES too powerful, flat out, no matter what.
Or
Are the BOSSES too powerful for where they can appear in Invasion, given that you are required to farm for gear, and while farming you can run into the exact boss you are farming to be able to deal with in future.
I believe the actual argument is currently both. But the issue is some people are arguing point A, some point B. And then the people discussing point B are calling out the people discussing point A telling them they are wrong.
So lets make it more simple. THis thread is about Invasion league, it clearly is. So why don't the discussions such as Fruz's recent ones about the boss in general stick to informative posts about what the boss does, how it works, and what sort of thing is required to defeat it. And these points can then be discussed vs the ease of getting this gear/situation/link setup and how viable it is to action this at a moments notice (when vaal metalsmith appears from nowhere) as opposed to where you are expecting to fight him.
As a good example, imaging that devourer from orchard just appearing randomly anywhere. That would hurt. And it would be challenging to be prepared for that in all instances at all times
It's not fallacious to dismiss a person's argument when they don't even have any first hand experience and have done literally no experiments, when the other person has actually experienced the event first hand multiple times, etc. This is especially true when the other person has yet to provide proof that they have first hand knowledge of actually encountering the boss, or at least enough experience behind them (and aren't hiding behind a hidden profile) to justify their theory. Theory from a person that is educated, has knowledge of game mechanics, etc. is fine. Theory from a person that has yet to ever reach end game content is just nonsense. For example, even if Kripparian has never encountered this boss, I would respect some of his theory because he has credentials to his name, he's played the game long enough to know most of the mechanics, and has hundreds of endgame content hours to his name. Clock and Fruz on the other hand, have yet to prove that they have ever encountered this boss (of which they likely haven't, because Clock hasn't even proven he plays Invasion, and Fruz probably won't see her unless it's the Vaal 79 map or right before Aztiri, as far as I know she doesn't spawn in corruption zones in Ambush).
You want me to be civil? Tell them to prove their credentials. Because right now the equivalent of what they are doing is arguing against a seasoned history professor about history while being an amateur reader of history books.
I can understand considering a persons theory based on their game knowledge. I disagree on dismissing them based on their personal experience from theory. For example, I know I have far more mechanical knowledge about the game than a large number of people, despite not having ever had a character over level 90, and not having one over level 78 I think it was since CB (so not showing on my profile). This means that I have a very large knowledge base to put forward ideas about changes, how they effect the game, and builds (especially builds, while I don't have high level I have a lot of different builds I have tried over the years, rivalling most people I would say).
So while my discussion about end game maps is based on just theory, using my knowledge of game mechanics and second hand knowledge from others, it is still solid theory based on correct information. But at the same time discussing something such as how easy it is to maintain end game maps, this is all second hand knowledge (since we have no numbers for map drop calculations) so any conjecture I make on this is simply based on what others before me have said and no experience (And I tend to avoid discussing this because of this).
People saying 'here is how this could have gone better' are not to be discounted if they are correct. This is why I end up in these pointless arguments, normally. its not because I disagree about the conclusion, its because I disagree about disagreeing with someone simply because of their existing characters.
For the record aswell I do generally consider your input to be quite valid towards posts you make. I sometimes disagree with it, but your input is solid, just try to refrain from the fallacy relating to first hand experience, unless the person is saying "no, I can do this myself" and using first hand knowledge as their reasoning behind their arguments
You can base a large portion of previous maps on your previous gameplay experience in CB and other factors. Clock and Fruz cannot possibly make any inferences on Invasion because there has never been anything like Invasion before. Thus, anything they say will automatically get discounted, especially when a player that has been in the league for awhile knows they are wrong.
Like you said, you can make second hand guesses on end game maps based on your previous experience in CB and lower level maps. These are somewhat similar experiences. Trying to say that 'XYZ player shouldn't have died in Invasion league' is total bollocks and you know it. Invasion plays completely different from any other league, and the mobs are using abilities that are basically completely different.
Last edited by allbusiness#6050 on Mar 13, 2014, 11:01:55 PM
sometimes i think clock, fruz and/or real wolf might be the same person (not to mention their account creation date looks very close in fact).
white knights in other game forums trying to prove their point through multiple accounts is not unheard of.
anyway on topic i hope the patch would have fix most of the one shot stuff, hopefully not creating new ones
The idea of calling someone a white knight to me almost always goes hand in hand with someone who does not listen to reason and instead dismisses anyone who disagrees with them.
Every whiteknight who has ever been accused of that on the forum doesn't meet the definition they are given, that they defend GGG regardless and aagainst all criticism. Everyone I know who has been accused of this has parts of the game they disagree with.
Personally I hate CI and its changes since CB, and a few other things.
So please, unless you want to say that you respond to people who disagree with your opinion by just ignoring them regardless of their logic behind their statements, stop trying to say people are white knights
