POE aka "Capitalism Simulator"?

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Reinhart wrote:

So either you dont give a shit about those gazillion gold bars in Path of Exile and you enjoy the game for what it is. Or you actually do care and are simply jealous what those traders do ingame.

I give a shit when it affects my own game experience, because just if you don't know: the game economy is balanced around trading (this has been said several times by GGG). Making the traditional hack'n'slash gameplay much less optimal as a way to improve your character and progress (which is what the game should be about, instead of the fucking economy).

This game is vanilla D3 on steroids, a "pretend-hardcore shooper simulator" game.

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desrocchi wrote:

This game feels like an EVE online wannabe.

The difference is that in EVE you know you are in an economy simulator.

Sadly a lot of the problems of the game come from the mental confusion the devs have mixing up concepts that do not work together, like MMO economics with ARPG and excessive (obsessive) RNG everywhere (ffs, even combat systems like lightning damage & crit are too much rng, try build a crit LS build w/o OP as fuck gear lolz).

However as an ex-EVE player that played for years I must say this game does not come even close to have a good shaped economy like EVE does and hence all the problems.

1) EVE economy is not driven by lol-RNG at all. Is in fact a very deterministic production economy where certain amount of actions will give you a certain outcome. The true "RNG" in that game is how other players actions influence your own decisions and actions, which is way more satisfying than artificial difficulty implemented through random generation. OFC this cannot be that way in ARPG, but there are many ways in which you can curve the probability distribution of some event in a pseudo-random system.

2) Certain amount of effort has certain outcomes when it comes to production, also the faucets and sinks in that game are very carefully balanced (the game is MUCH more rewarding than PoE, but you can also lose stuff MUCH easier, if you take any risk). This has a strong psychological upside compared to ARPG's and specially "Path of Trading": the positive reinforcement feedback loop is in much better shape.

You will be always 'upgrading' yourself because you will be always losing stuff, likewise, your work will always have some value compared to lol-ARPG where your work over time has DECAYING value (the biggest problem of ARPG's and specially in PoE, and the reason why you read so many QQ threads in the forum about "the economy", "drops" or "trading"). So even low tier items or materials have always an STABLE value. Price stability is very important for shaping player perception of value and their own effort.


That's why you can get hooked by a game like EVE for years and years (even if the combat is the most dull thing you ever will see, even worse than PoE), and in PoE you will get tired of playing 1-month into a new league (and it will keep getting worse) except for a few/new players.

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estu87 wrote:

the solution is easy, remove trading/all item account bound/only self found. tadaaaaaaaaaa!!

I think this would make it worse. The game should still be benefit interactions with other players. Classic example is the two men coop with your friend where you pretty much share your loot. This type of trading has no influence at the economy at all.

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boye wrote:

iTS A ARPG, IF YOU NO LIKE, YOU NO PLAY?

ARPG dont say anything about if and how there is an economy in this game. Whenever i read something about bad economy in game i have to remind myself to the Steam-rating on the bookkeeping software "Your need Budged":

"Kind of like EVE Online except there's no subscription fees and it's with real money."

That pretty much sums it too for Path of Exile.

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Mr_Cee wrote:

face it: there are different ways to play these games; everybody can define his own role... 'trader' is one of these, with very low amount of 'real playtime'.

I am rly interested in other "non drastic" (?) options to fix the issue i described. Playing the game is far less beneficial then playing the game as a trade-simulator. So imho there are two main options: make playing more rewarding or nerf the trade-part of the game. So can you explain how traders and middlemen can get nerfed?

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Poutsos wrote:

One of the most major components of both capitalism and online games,is competition.

Totally agree, but to clear it out: Neither in the real world nor in path of exile there are equal chances for everyone and grinding don’t make you rich. I am sure everyone would agree that it would be the best for the game if you can get the same benefit from whatever play style you choose.

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Reinhart wrote:

So either you dont give a shit about those gazillion gold bars in Path of Exile and you enjoy the game for what it is. Or you actually do care and are simply jealous what those traders do ingame.

Problem is: giving a shit about you neighbor’s wealth don’t lie in human nature. That’s why for instance the top 1% of the wealthiest people aren’t happy with there income, cuz they compare with the top 0,1%. This is no issue at all when you can compensate that gap by “working better”. What most Millionaires complain is that they are kind of locked out from getting Billions. That’s kind of the same problem with path of exile. The wealth distribution is far from equal which leads to an relative unhappy player base. The other problem is, that you cant close that incoming gaps easily. That’s the two main problems with POE and todays economy in many countrys.

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"Zanixx wrote:

1. Be efficient... trading is the most efficient way to play this game.

2. Be satisfied... play using the gear you find and craft.

Each of us can choose the path we want our exile to head down. Most efficient or most satisfied. Ofcourse some people will love trading and get great satisfaction from it and thats great. Each for their own.

And that’s the main problem. Be efficient should NEVER to be contrast to be satisfied. When you completely skip trading its fine for you to a certain gear-wall-point, but even until then you kind of now that you fool yourself, cuz you wasted time (or wealth which is equal) by not trading. So skipping the trade part of the game means that you A never will reach endgame (beware that you’ve chosen the path of “play the game”) and B you will never have enough wealth to do some serious crafting at all. And lets face it: We all play(ed) POE so we are about earning as much loot as fast as possible and I am sure most of us would enjoy to actually play the game instead of trading, cuz they want to CONSUME the game, meaning to get all the content it can offer to you. Browsering poe.xyz is no joyful at all.

Unfortunately GGG disagrees about the negative impact their insistence on an economy has so just like every other poorly thought out system in PoE you might as well just accept it for what it is or it will drive you mad.

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

Unfortunately GGG disagrees about the negative impact their insistence on an economy has so just like every other poorly thought out system in PoE you might as well just accept it for what it is or it will drive you mad.

I accepted it, that's why I uninstalled the game.

Still rooting for a change, though.

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roteweste wrote:

3. This is my favorite option by far. Make us believe in the American dream! Let the average Joe get rich, if he plays hard enough. Meaning: 1. Let everyone(= no IIR or IIQ crap, which favors certain builds) get guaranteed (= you want to get a certain amount of wealth when I play the game for sure. Make bosses drops unique or something like that.)

You still wouldn't get rich with this. Here's what would happen:

You kill a boss. Boss drops Voltaxic Rift. Now go farm 4,000 fusings before you can actually use Voltaxic Rift. My guess is you're more likely to uninstall the game rather than farm fusings for the next 12 months.

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desrocchi wrote:

I accepted it, that's why I uninstalled the game.

Still rooting for a change, though.

Question whether PoE has to change, that's done, that's over man. Now the only question is how many more players are GGG willing to lose before that happens.

+1 to OP, well written post.

Now, obligatory WoW comparison!

I played WoW (when max level was 80). How could i improve my char? Of course, doing raids! Raid bosses always dropped an BiS item. But it didnt matter, it could be BiS for a class (tank, healer, dps), subclass (melee, caster) and build (affliction DoT or stuff like that). And a BiS DPS item had to be /randomed for all DPS player in the raid. The stick was realy hard (wiping fest deluxe each week), but the carrot always in front of one. Constant progress.

Anyway, was there any other possibility to vastly improve my gear without raiding? Yes, giving my account to a chinese for 200$ who farmed raids until the item dropped. Did i care if something did this? Lol, no! Having a good guild and good raids (which means all persons know their char, build, and mechanics of all bosses, a good raid leader, right composition of classes etc) was key to success. And even if a kiddy bought a high-gearscore char off on ebay making sick DPS, did i care? No! Because farming was fun.

Sadly, in PoE, key success is either RMT or trading/flipping. Or just delete all chars and start from beginning (aka "races"). And i think, GGG is neither willing or able to fix that.

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toyotatundra wrote:

Question whether PoE has to change, that's done, that's over man. Now the only question is how many more players are GGG willing to lose before that happens.

That literally could be the million dollar question.

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roteweste wrote:

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Poutsos wrote:

One of the most major components of both capitalism and online games,is competition.

Totally agree, but to clear it out: Neither in the real world nor in path of exile there are equal chances for everyone and grinding don’t make you rich. I am sure everyone would agree that it would be the best for the game if you can get the same benefit from whatever play style you choose.

It is impossible in a capitalist system to have equal chances,despite what Milton Friedman might have preached.Of course luck is a factor,but also what u do,must be profitable for the markets,in order to succed.Someone can be a genius,but if his work,cannot be exploited by the markets,to gain profit,then he won't ever be rewarded financially for his work.It is a system that it's only purpose is profit and competition.For example,a great clasical or jazz musician,spends countles hours per day,working on his music,but in the end,he is almost always poor,while nicky minaj makes millions.It's more or less the same in games,not that i like it.