POE aka "Capitalism Simulator"?

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roteweste wrote:

When you take a look at the wealth distribution in several country’s you see what you expect from pretty much every unregulated economy. I am pretty sure the same thing happened with the POE economy, where about 60-80% of the current wealth are owned by players with a summarized game time of 10% of the total game time of all players. In shot: There are few rich players and a lot of poor players. The reason I make this call is, because I think in game currency (orbs, expensive items) behave in many ways like real life currency.

This is so true. I can remember Chris stating that he did not wanted "pay to win" to get into the game, because he wanted everyone to be equal, and that PoE had to be different from real-life, in the sense that everyone should have the same chance to get to the end-game. But when the end-game goes by trading and when trading is about being rich, in a free market based system, how the hell do you it it to behave different from real-life ?

People with no political and historical knowledge can be so...


Communism is dead, capitalism won't last for more than 50 years, it is time to think about something else. Instead of making a social-study on what is fucked up in capitalism (which is pretty clear), make a study about what could work instead.


A few words from Ezra Pound (translated from english to french in my book, and I try to translate them back in english - I sure lost the poetry and mastering of words in the process) :

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Extract from "The world of utopia"

On the 10th september, as I was walking by the Via Salaria, beyond Fara Sabina, I penetrated, after a while, into the Republic of Utopia, placid country that you cannot find in any geography book. [...]

They said their prosperity came from the simple way of tax collection or, to say it better, this unique tax that is money itself. On each bill with a value of 100 units, you have to apply a stamp with a value of 1 unit, each first day of each month. Government, paying his expenses with a new money, never needed to create new taxes, and no one could hoard a money which, after a hundred month, is worthless.

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Nephalim wrote:

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However, this is not necessarily the case; it's possible for ARPGs to offer builds where the skill bonus is large enough to take a build from mortal without, to superior performance metrics with. In other words: the size of the skill bonus is something which is under developer control.

Unfortunately, the gem linking system absolutely goes against this. your main skill (generally with some form of aoe) with 5 linked support gems will be used likely 99% of the time simply because it generates the most damage per action time. You may have a single target in a 4 link , some curses, some codt links but thats really the extent of skill diversity for any given end game build. I do not think having a curse makes a build more skillfully nor would i think having a 3rd active offensive skill much more skillful than just having 2.

Even the very concept of a 'build' will generally involve a mention of the one or two mainskill the build uses.


Builds that have a large amount active offensive of skills simply do not perform as well because only one or two of them will be supported by more than 3 support gems. The reason for the auto pilot end game is inherent game design.

The gem linking system also makes six-links a luxury, not a given, for most players' definitions of "endgame". For the 99% of the game that's before that, there is absolutely room for skills, both player and gem varieties (for example, one of my many characters is an ice witch in domination, who uses ice nova and cold snap traps, multi-projectile ice spears and freezing pulses, zombies, and freeze mines, often all within a single fight; she's in merciless and has less than 2k combined health and energy shield). For a significant number of people (how significant is difficult to tell from here, but they're loud about it), desync is a serious damper on these. I am not one of them, but I do think it's something worth improving.

so this is another thread where people discuss(at the highest stage) why they should get more stuff for less effort?

i really understand the comparison to the RL-capitalism, and that unregulated markets get kinda nasty after some time, but unlike the economic system in the RL nobody's starving to death in wraeclast, even if it kinda feels like somtimes(and nessa looks a bit sick), when u just need that tri-res piece of gear, dont matter what base, just some resis to hit the cap...but i guess this is the reason why so many of us still grind the shit out of that game...

and its not like the wealth of some flippers is taken away from you, you dont have less, because he has more, its just that most of you guys do the efficiency vs. fun math, which favors the ones playing monopoly with uniques and BiS/mirrorstuff

and you look at your neighbours garden, dislike his swimmingpool and yet you want one yourself

well, this is wraeclast and not the word of wonderland, were after a set amount of time a set amount of stuff is in your inventory

and that the game is based around trading, and grinding with MF is for some a flaw, for others a feature..

this is from someone who doesnt flip and i also have only 'bout 40%iir and no iiq while grinding and still i feel like i can compete(at least fun-wise) with those soultaker-swinging BoR guys who wear a Kaoms in every slot..i just dont have dozens of exalts to spam, but a skillgem here, a weapon upgrade for some chaos there...everyone can do that, and everyone dedicated to the game can reach endgame content...if ure not dedicated, u dont deserve!

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Nightmare90 wrote:

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boye wrote:

iTS A ARPG, IF YOU NO LIKE, YOU NO PLAY?

This must be the best thing I have read in a while. :_D

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Skivverus wrote:

Unfortunately, the gem linking system absolutely goes against this. your main skill (generally with some form of aoe) with 5 linked support gems will be used likely 99% of the time simply because it generates the most damage per action time.

Well its always some skill involved when you are playing a game, but I think we can all agree that pure skill-cap for “gaming skills” (which don’t include the “business skills” that you need to progress) aren’t that high in any ARPG. That’s why lots of people got also frustrated with vanilla D3 inferno. Its not that there was a (high) skill-cap for that difficulty, but without gear you could not progress. That’s why I am willing to call “wealth” in itself a “skill” on its own in this game. Well an elegant way to reward skilled players (in the legacy meaning of that term), there could be the shift to more skillshot projectiles on both gems and monsters. ATM that’s kind of impossible cuz desync. Another way would be to increase the magic find luck with the time you stayed alive.

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spiesswart wrote:

and its not like the wealth of some flippers is taken away from you, you dont have less, because he has more, its just that most of you guys do the efficiency vs. fun math, which favors the ones playing monopoly with uniques and BiS/mirrorstuff
and you look at your neighbours garden, dislike his swimmingpool and yet you want one yourself

I am so glad you pointed that out. Because I totally DISAGREE. :-)

The funny thing is: This argument is ( at least in Germany ) always there in debatings about taxes. “Why want you to raise the taxes the for rich. You are just jealous”. Sentences like that allways comes. Well lets compare first to the real world. Whats the main goal of a state? If you ask me a well suited definition would be to increase the overall happiness of all people living in it (get you a school system. prevents you getting raped. ect.). “The pursuit of happiness” if you will so. Well I think the goal of the game has to be the same as the goal of a state. The point is: both in real world and in the game: there is an relationship between unequal distribution ( -> Gini-Coefficient ) and the happiness.


(Link if image dont work: http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/10/inequality-and-happiness )

In short: Inequality makes you unhappy. That’s part of the human nature. We are social beings and compare our self to others. No matter what. That’s also why in researching poor people there is no equal barrier at which you can declare a person as poor. That’s why every country has its own standard of poor. When you look at the graph, note also that a low gini-coeffient don't lead to disappointed rich. Thats kind of logic. When you have a million and all of you friends are multimillionaires you for sure will feel pretty poor. Thats no question of you total income, its only a question about you rank in the society (which depends on you daily environment ofc).

So what should GGG do in terms of loot drops? They rly have to think of ways to decrease the unequal distribution of wealth.

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xSyK0TiC wrote:

'hole'

lol. As i said. My English kind of sucks. In this context:
hole = entire ;-)

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spiesswart wrote:

and its not like the wealth of some flippers is taken away from you, you dont have less, because he has more

Not? Flippers make their "customers" poor indeed, charging more (and more and more and more) from them than 'neccessary'. If a common unique or gem usually IS (also) offered for one Alchemy (or even below, some start with less than a Fusing), then I see prices of several Chaos just as extortion. Same goes for more rare stuff, where prices (of non-perfect) show differences of several Exalts - 500% increases are very common here: extortion, making everyone become more poor that cant manage to meet/deal with the one that dropped the item (the initial seller)

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spiesswart wrote:

and you look at your neighbours garden, dislike his swimmingpool and yet you want one yourself

Improper example. Its much more like that you want a car, and for a model the manufacturer charges $5k (for those with the 'luck' to buy direct), you have to pay $50k to the dealer...
Its not the 'jealousy' of the clients, its the greed of the marketeers - and THEY are the ones that get more (profit) for less effort (playing).

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In short: Inequality makes you unhappy. That’s part of the human nature. We are social beings and compare our self to others. No matter what. That’s also why in researching poor people there is no equal barrier at which you can declare a person as poor. That’s why every country has its own standard of poor. When you look at the graph, note also that a low gini-coeffient don't lead to disappointed rich. Thats kind of logic. When you have a million and all of you friends are multimillionaires you for sure will feel pretty poor. Thats no question of you total income, its only a question about you rank in the society (which depends on you daily environment ofc).

Dang youre right, totally got the point but isnt it kinda irrational(like mankind always is) that wealth alswasy is measured in relation to wealth of others and that there is no absolute amount at wich people feel saturated as long as there is one who got more...when i have a million, but my friends all have billions, my million still can buy lots of suff i guess...(pls dont say inflation, im not prepared enough...)

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Not? Flippers make their "customers" poor indeed, charging more (and more and more and more) from them than 'neccessary'. If a common unique or gem usually IS (also) offered for one Alchemy (or even below, some start with less than a Fusing), then I see prices of several Chaos just as extortion. Same goes for more rare stuff, where prices (of non-perfect) show differences of several Exalts - 500% increases are very common here: extortion, making everyone become more poor that cant manage to meet/deal with the one that dropped the item (the initial seller)

i think not, because the flippers aren't the ones to find the items, they usually buy them from anyone who is willed to sell them cheaper as they think they will be able to sell it others, at least this is what i've seen; its the normal player who doesnt know the prices who is glad to quickly get 2ex for an alphas howl not knowing the dude will just sell it for 4ex...
everything beneath that, ure right people "making" prices and driving them to the mount olymp sucks

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Its not the 'jealousy' of the clients, its the greed of the marketeers - and THEY are the ones that get more (profit) for less effort (playing).

its both i guess, jealousy AND greed...can't we just overcome this? you see we are able to discuss this matter, and we are able to name the problem, and yet we are not able to just turn off that jelly little guy in our heads that tells us that we also should get our piece from the cake...or the devil on the left shoulder who tells us to take some more exalteds for that item..

but still my dedcation point stands; flipping and trading is its own kind of effort and much people like it, the game in the game where you can fell like youre a tycoon on the stockmarket dealing with exalts and shit...i know its not what the common hack and slayer is looking for but its a part of the game i dont want to miss

when you see them, in trade chat, their forum shops always up to date, negociation here, juglling the prices there, it is a big time investment...sure you would need to invest 1000x the time to accumulate the same wealth by just killing stuff but what you seem to forget is what it is about in this game: its about killing stuff