POE aka "Capitalism Simulator"?

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noobdw wrote:

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phrazz wrote:

There is ONE thing I just can't understand, what so ever!

The player base is quite split: traders and non-traders. So why... WHY can't GGG make different leagues (permanent) that appeals to both groups?

"We do not want to further split the player base", they say. But the player base is already split, coz non-traders do not trade.

I just... Wow...

Does it offend you that other people trade? I mean, what will a new league for people who does not trade will change? traders will trade and non-traders won't trade, just like now.

I think one of the main reasons "traders" don't want to be lumped in a league with other true traders... with a self found league active, for example... is because you would lose out on all the sorry suckers you guys rip off on a daily basis. You would actually have to work your trades a lot more.

Why so scared?

Why shouldn't trading be more hardcore?


Self Found League please. With higher drop/craft rates.

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noobdw wrote:

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phrazz wrote:

There is ONE thing I just can't understand, what so ever!

The player base is quite split: traders and non-traders. So why... WHY can't GGG make different leagues (permanent) that appeals to both groups?

"We do not want to further split the player base", they say. But the player base is already split, coz non-traders do not trade.

I just... Wow...

Does it offend you that other people trade? I mean, what will a new league for people who does not trade will change? traders will trade and non-traders won't trade, just like now.

I think he implies that a "non-trade"-league would have significant higher currency drop rate.

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Artanthos wrote:

The difference is, those other games have brokers or auction houses that make it easy for the average player to buy and sell mid-tier gear.

Very few players expect access to "The Best", but most enjoy being able to progress to some degree without feeling as through they are either pounding their head against the wall or being ripped off.

Not all online games have brokers or auction houses. Some have trading schemes in place that are more simplistic than Path of Exile.

Buying mid-tier game in Path of Exile is actually really simple. Just surf to the trading forums and there is a ton of stuff out there trying to be sold. Browsing a few threads will already net you the item you were looking for.

Selling on the other hand is MUCH harder. That is true. Simply because there IS so much choice for the buyer.

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PandaMan wrote:

Why not make a league where currency is banned and instead barter item for item.

I really like this idea.

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Isbox1 wrote:

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noobdw wrote:

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phrazz wrote:

There is ONE thing I just can't understand, what so ever!

The player base is quite split: traders and non-traders. So why... WHY can't GGG make different leagues (permanent) that appeals to both groups?

"We do not want to further split the player base", they say. But the player base is already split, coz non-traders do not trade.

I just... Wow...

Does it offend you that other people trade? I mean, what will a new league for people who does not trade will change? traders will trade and non-traders won't trade, just like now.

I think one of the main reasons "traders" don't want to be lumped in a league with other true traders... with a self found league active, for example... is because you would lose out on all the sorry suckers you guys rip off on a daily basis. You would actually have to work your trades a lot more.

Why so scared?

Why shouldn't trading be more hardcore?


Self Found League please. With higher drop/craft rates.

Oh no, I'm not scared at all, I love the trading game :\ I reap off other traders too, dont get me wrong, it's a skill.
But please answer my question

See, OP, that's why i didn't want to elaborate this in the first place. Arguing on the internet is pointless. Believe whatever you please.

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ahcos wrote:

I'm not too sure why people are trying to make a game into something it's not, when they could just carry on with their lifes and do something with their time they actually enjoy.

I immediately thought of this song when I read this slightl different subject but the overall message applies i think

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ahcos wrote:

See, OP, that's why i didn't want to elaborate this in the first place. Arguing on the internet is pointless. Believe whatever you please.

I agree, that's why I dont argue, there is nothing wrong with a simple discussion, I want to understand others' sides, and to get the right answers I need to explain what I already know :\ not every disagreement is an argument.

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DalaiLama wrote:

Who knows what and how GGG will change in the future. I think they want players to be able to find good things, but they want to be careful about making it too easy to find gear and having players become bored.

Well I dont think we have to worry about GGG making finding gear too easy. :)

This is the only arpg in the world where items are worth more unidentified. Why even ID that trash rare, when it's worth an extra chaos if you don't? This is the game where you find trash after trash, vendor, get currency and buy what you need. I dont think we should be expecting any change there. Hell, they dont even have to change a thing at the moment, lets all watch that steam chart continue to slide..

If they make a game deliberately to be unrewarding and frustrating, perhaps they shouldnt be surprised when players find PoE to be, well, unrewarding and frustrating.

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toyotatundra wrote:

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DalaiLama wrote:

Who knows what and how GGG will change in the future. I think they want players to be able to find good things, but they want to be careful about making it too easy to find gear and having players become bored.

Well I dont think we have to worry about GGG making finding gear too easy. :)

This is the only arpg in the world where items are worth more unidentified. Why even ID that trash rare, when it's worth an extra chaos if you don't? This is the game where you find trash after trash, vendor, get currency and buy what you need. I dont think we should be expecting any change there. Hell, they dont even have to change a thing at the moment, lets all watch that steam chart continue to slide..

If they make a game deliberately to be unrewarding and frustrating, perhaps they shouldnt be surprised when players find PoE to be, well, unrewarding and frustrating.

The big march update will really be telling whether they are willing to make changes for the better simply for fun's sake rather than sticking to their 'this is my game, hardcore/economy ftw!!' mentality. If they don't do something to meet the player base half way I'll be really disappointed.

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roteweste wrote:

So first of why I make this post: There are many people complaining about the POE economy for several reasons. I think the biggest part is, that when it comes to maps, the game has definitive an item-check which is hard to approve by just playing the game. You need to trade at least at the end of merciless and you get in contact with the “broken” economy.

Is the economy rly broken? I don’t think so. When you take a look at the wealth distribution in several country’s you see what you expect from pretty much every unregulated economy. I am pretty sure the same thing happened with the POE economy, where about 60-80% of the current wealth are owned by players with a summarized game time of 10% of the total game time of all players. In shot: There are few rich players and a lot of poor players. The reason I make this call is, because I think in game currency (orbs, expensive items) behave in many ways like real life currency. The reasons in my opinion are:

1. Getting richer offers you much better trades in form of the absolute amount of currency you make. Lets say you are on of the “working poor” POE players who is happy to get a GMP-Gem for 2 Chaos instead of 3 Chaos. The trade took you several minutes and your value was 1 Chaos (if you are lucky). So assuming you only make a slight average advantage by trading makes it pretty much pointless for you, if you are poor. If you are rich and get a Kaom’s Heard for lets say 30 Exalteds and sell it for 35 Exalteds (note relatively spoken this is a worse trade, then the poor mens trade). You get a total benefit of 5 Exalteds or around 150 Chaos. So trading with top-tier items is far (!) more beneficial then trading with low-tier items.

2. As working don’t get you rich, playing the game don’t get you rich. Shure you can get a great job and climb career ladder but in the end, as well as find the one lucky (mirror) drop, but in the end, that’s not how the average gets rich. Lets face it: In POE you get rich by getting access to very beneficial trades or making bot-slaves work for you.

I firmly believe trading benefits the poor more than it benefits the rich; an argument can be made that it benefits the skilled rich most of all, but notably at the expense of the unskilled rich.

1. In a zero-trading environment, the vast majority of the wealth would be controlled by a very small handful of players. This wouldn't necessarily be purely from them playing more (although it would be a huge factor); it would also be from them playing smarter. It's time spent playing times wealth gained per unit time.

2a. The vast supply of mid-tier items serves the poor player; the low (or no) supply of highest-tier items available on the market does not serve the rich player very well, at least in terms of progression. As far as gear (not currency) is concerned, the system distinctly advantages poor players, allowing them to bypass some of the normal progression and catch up from behind. (This is why ARPGs have trading systems in the first place.)

2b. This means: the greater the wealth disparity between any two traders, the more likely the trade is to be significantly beneficial to both parties, with no ripping off required for mutual profit; the less wealth disparity between any two traders, the more likely the trade will approach zero-sum, with both parties attempting to rip each other off. (In short: you can't squeeze blood from a stone.)

3a. Prices for lower-tier gear have much lower variance than prices for higher-tier gear (and said variance is further lowered by tools such as poe.xyz.is). This is a result of supply; the more people are selling an item, the easier it is to spot trends in pricing. Greater variance in price leads to greater variance in profit and loss, relative to mean/median price, when trading. Which means: yes, skilled flippers gravitate towards the highest-end, rarest items, because those are precisely the ones where other players are most likely to be ignorant of the mean/median prices.

3b. However, one must also note that, when it comes to trade profit relative to mean/median price, it's a zero-sum game; for every player who is ripping off, there is a player ripped off. Dealing in high-end items (that is, being "rich") does not guarantee one a profit, and in fact increases the risk of being brutally ripped off. With that risk comes the opportunity of brutally ripping off another. It's a combination of wealth and skill which allows players to follow the path of wealth you glamourize in your point #2.

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roteweste wrote:

So that I think is the main point Path of Exile feels at a certain level more like the real world capitalism then like a game. Well of course it’s an ARPG game, which kind of has the goal to make us believe in its version of the American dream. “When I grind long and hard (efficient) enough, one day, I get rich.” And sure there are people who make it this way. But lets face it: You need very much luck on your side to do so and for the average Joe, that’s no possibly.

Well, naturally. It's time x wealth per unit time; if you're way behind either due to lack of time spent or due to poor efficiency regarding wealth per unit time (or both), you'd have to rely either on luck, or on skill (vastly improving your wealth per unit time factor). You can't really count on time, because you can count on top players to dedicate huge amounts of time to stay on top; at best, you can hope to tie them in time commitment, which won't help close the gap.

It's worth noting here that luck is an out; it enables some degree of upward mobility which wouldn't occur otherwise. RNG is an egalitarian force.

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roteweste wrote:

As I am not happy with the way the “game” is right now, meaning you need access to very expensive items to get to endgame (high lvl maps) if you don’t want to rely on a few several non-item dependent builds,

You need to understand that "very expensive" and "normal" items here are relatives, not absolutes. The longer an economy ages, the higher the standard becomes; today's "very expensive" items will be "normal" items someday, as the supply of newer, better items increases. In short: price is subject to inflation. As such, balancing the game around "normal item level" is impossible.

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roteweste wrote:

2. If you want the let yourself inspire by the real world economy, taxes are an option. That’s sounds silly sure, but you need to transfer incoming taxes in the game economy. There are two resources in the game: time and wealth. So if you want to make trading less beneficial you can create a “time tax”. (Well the crap trading system is of course kind of a “time-tax” in itself.) For example: Allow on your players account only 5 trades a weak. Most of the players won’t notice much, but if you are a rich trader, that will hurt you pretty much.

This wouldn't fix a single damn problem, and cause numerous new ones. Consider that, for brand new players, trading for cheap upgrades is their primary means of catching up.

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roteweste wrote:

3. This is my favorite option by far. Make us believe in the American dream! Let the average Joe get rich, if he plays hard enough. Meaning: 1. Let everyone(= no IIR or IIQ crap, which favors certain builds) get guaranteed (= you want to get a certain amount of wealth when I play the game for sure. Make bosses drops unique or something like that.) wealth by playing the game (=increase loot significantly). The only core rule has to be: the harder the content goes, the more wealth he can earn per minute! And shure the wealth/minute should still be some kind of a gambling (imho), but atm its totaly random which it shouldnt be.

This also doesn't fix a damn thing. Remember that wealth is determined by time x wealth per unit time, and the elite players have access to the exact same systems. Do you honestly believe an elite player wouldn't exploit these systems harder than an average player? There will always be disparity regarding wealth per unit time, because some players are simply smarter than average.

The only real way to destroy "capitalism" as it exists in PoE is to attack that concept directly: make it so skill is not rewarded, and everyone gets the same wealth per unit time, regardless of whether they're playing like a genius or a doofus. And, in so doing, you'd completely destroy the concept of reward based on skill, and kill the fun of playing the game in the first place.