Legacy items

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DarkTl wrote:

Old players with super-valuable items are already rich enough to afford anything. If they will loose 10-50 ex because of item nerf, nothing bad will happen, they still have much more wealth than majority of players will ever see.

An example. I was upset too when they fixed Desecrate gem. I worked hard to get it asap. Now give me legacy gem please.

Well, that's not entirely true. I am a couter-example, for instance. Now, current Kaom's is of course not legacy Kaom's, but the price of legacy was actually around the same back when it wasn't legacy. I recently bought a Kaom's, but it took everything I had almost. If you delete my Kaom's Heart, you delete everything I have worked and saved for in Nemesis. I can see why this was a very big factor in the decision GGG made.

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Faendris wrote:

Very simple: I earned it. I got my legacy Soultaker AFTER it went legacy. I had to grind for weeks to get it. Come back when you have spent 150+ ex on an item and then tell me how you would feel if it was nefed into oblivion.

There's going to be bad side effects on anything GGG does in handling a mistake they made. People are going to suffer but its best IMO if they choose to fix their mistakes instead of letting them stick around in ANY league. People need to remember that basically everyone suffers in one way or another. I lost many exalts along with other people who traded away uniques that then became legacy. Is that fair as well? People spend many hours making builds that are nerfed to the ground in ALL leagues, why? Because GGG wants as much balance as they can get in ALL leagues.

Everyone suffers at some point but its best that they make the game as good as it can be. OP uniques sitting around does not help to achieve this goal. I also think that its worth mentioning that if you have a legacy that gets nerfed its not worthless. If you spent 80 exalts on a unique and it gets nerfed, its not worth zero, Maybe it lost around half its value give or take but not all of it.

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Faendris wrote:

What I do not understand is: what would you guys gain if GGG would nerf my legacy soultaker? What would GGG gain? I do not even PvP at all. Is it just envy?

It wouldn't be fair to you and it wouldn't be fair to future players trying to find them, and it wouldn't be fair to those who recently traded them etc etc

None of it is fair, its not fair GGG released those uniques in such a poor state. IMO if GGG really didn't want to make people mad then they should have just left them all alone. No nerfing at all and they can just live with their mistakes.

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CanHasPants wrote:

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lethal_papercut wrote:

If anything they are the experimental leagues, where Qarl tries his hand at changing the meta from the results of the last league, the players are practically lab rats.

Were Exiles balanced in Anarchy?..nope, apparently not as they were re-balanced afterwards

Spoiler

This is largely untrue. There's a key difference between your perspective, and reality: we (anarchy players) wanted the challenge of super punishing exiles. They were nerfed when they migrated to the permanent leagues, because no HC player would have enjoyed being caught unawares by an OP Igna. Many of us were sorely disappointed in how trivial exiles became after the migration, and I, at least, absolutely loved it when an OP exile spawned in the boss room of an OP map.

Meanwhile,

none of this has to do with the kind of balance Scrotie was talking about. He mentioned, specifically, the economy. The only way to balance it, is through wipes. Ergo, permanent leagues for players who want to save their items, and temporary leagues for players who want a fresh economy. This has absolutely nothing to do with otherwise experimental rules--they're just a perk for those who enjoy such things, adding an extra flair of something new to an otherwise fully explored and realized game. Their existence has no bearing on whether or not a perk of temporary leagues is a balanced economy.

To be honest, I'm wondering if it would be better the other way around — having Standard Ladder and Hardcore Ladder, and having the permanent leagues be the lands of experimentation. The temp leagues already have enough novelty — a new economy, which may develop differently than previous iterations due to differences in balance, new Acts or monsters, and metagame trends; the perm leagues, in contrast, are already inherently imbalanced, generally have characters which can afford more challenge, and could use the extra novelty.

Hell must be freezing over, because I think CHP is wrong and l_p has a valid point.

No doubt, it's an odd interaction, pairing a "balanced" economy with experimental rules, but I think it works best that way if we're to uphold that the permanent leagues are meant to be more stable. I suppose, it's just a matter of how leagues are identified.

But on that note, I still believe the game would benefit massively from having permanent legacy leagues, different from the other permanent leagues, where standard and hardcore can progress without being disrupted by ladder migrations and HC deaths. League fragmentation be damned, the current league architecture creates a big effing wall, which GGG could easily back themselves up against if they aren't careful with rebalance. Distinguishing permanent leagues from legacy leagues would, I'd think, give them a lot more flexibility, including but not limited to more aggressive unique item balancing.

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Faendris wrote:

Very simple: I earned it. I got my legacy Soultaker AFTER it went legacy. I had to grind for weeks to get it. Come back when you have spent 150+ ex on an item and then tell me how you would feel if it was nefed into oblivion.

Makes a valid point for not retroactively nerfing Legacy items. What GGG should do instead is implement a new Vendor recipe for each OP Legacy Unique:

Legacy Unique -> Mirror of Kalandra

Mirrors are currently worth over 150 Ex in Standard. This recipe would give Legacy Unique owners the option to cash in or copy any other item in the game. Seems fair to me.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

To be honest, I'm wondering if it would be better the other way around — having Standard Ladder and Hardcore Ladder, and having the permanent leagues be the lands of experimentation.

I personally don't see why it should be an either/or situation, Alpha should be the testing realm, not a live league, there should be no reason as to why Standard & the new leagues can't have the same rule sets.

GGG's reasons for not including Exiles in Standard league was to encourage a 'fresh' league with the release of the game, which made sense but what we found was ~50/50 split of the softcore playerbase between Standard & Anarchy. People played Standard regardless.

Exiles eventually came to Standard & I can only presume that Shrines & Nemesis mods will follow suit, so essentially all the Standard players are doing is waiting an extra 4 months for content patches.

Many people just want to play Standard as it is permanent, I see no reason why they should be essentially punished for doing so by having to wait an extra 4 months for the same content to come to their league, who benefits?

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lethal_papercut wrote:

I personally don't see why it should be an either/or situation, Alpha should be the testing realm, not a live league, there should be no reason as to why Standard & the new leagues can't have the same rule sets.

You don't see what Alpha's true purpose is; it's not about balance, it's about glitches. Plus, Alpha's far too small and insular to get decent balance data, even if they tried, which they don't. Therefore, such experimentation must be done on the whole game.

How it should be:
Permanent Standard league - with seasonal mod
Permanent Hardcore league - with seasonal mod
Temporary Standard league - vanilla
Temporary Hardcore league - vanilla

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

To be honest, I'm wondering if it would be better the other way around — having Standard Ladder and Hardcore Ladder, and having the permanent leagues be the lands of experimentation.

The only way to properly know the results of a experiment is to isolate that change by itself in the purest form achievable. Having it in the standard league would dilute it to the point that its impact will be clouded by its interactions with other existing mechanics and the economy's glut of items.


edit - to add a bad analogy as required by internet law...


Its like melting + mixing together all the available ice cream flavors you have and then asking you what you thought of just 1 flavor in that mix and what can be done to improve it....

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Charanjaydemyr wrote:

Don't like legacy uniques in PoE? Don't play Standard.

To be fair this is a pretty useless thing to say to someone who chooses to play standard because he or she would hate a temporary league.