Difference between MOBAs and ARPGs in terms of desync

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ghost8686 wrote:

Ok, that may be a true, and that is an issue not relevant to this thread. This thread specifically was comparing League to PoE, and I simply was trying to explain why this is silly.

MOBA's, not LoL specifically.

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Robert_Paulson wrote:

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ghost8686 wrote:

Ok, that may be a true, and that is an issue not relevant to this thread. This thread specifically was comparing League to PoE, and I simply was trying to explain why this is silly.

MOBA's, not LoL specifically.

Edited. My point still stands.

For some one that have played dota for 6 years and HoN since start of beta I can tell you that these games aren't alike the least in any mechanics at all.

First and foremost the game engine Is not even close to each other.

For what purpose or how do you even think they are similar?

It's an ARPG with many variables of different numbers that you have to take into the whole blurs of things.

Compare games that are similar instead. Diablo 3, diablo 2, Fate, Fate 2, and so on. They have something called rubber banding instead, their engine and netcode Isn't the same as PoE, but they have similarities with the problem we see in PoE, called Desync.

It's not as bad but try a WW barb in Diablo 3 and you can see how badly you can go rubber banding at times, almost more noticeable then the desync problem we have in the game.

And the only spells i have ever had a heavy problem with desync in this game is all the movement spells. It's still don't justify we still have desync, It's a annoyance and you have to play around it. But comparing two different games with a hell of a lot different engines and fixed hitboxes.

It's just silly.

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Xpire wrote:

Compare games that are similar instead. Diablo 3, diablo 2, Fate, Fate 2, and so on. They have something called rubber banding instead, their engine and netcode Isn't the same as PoE, but they have similarities with the problem we see in PoE, called Desync.

My original post was inspired by a quote from the developers of GGG about the reasoning behind why ARPGs can't use the same approach to synchronization as MOBAs. MOBAs use a "wait for the server to respond before showing any action on the client" approach. The reasoning for why this isn't possible in an ARPG was given as "because it feels terrible to control". My question is, if this is true, how does it work for MOBAs then? If a slight lag isn't a problem there, why is it a problem for PoE or other ARPGs? My initial perspective was that the slight lag would be less of a problem for users than desync is currently (especially in certain troublesome spots like Brutus, where if you try to run circles around the columns you will desync terribly making it impossible to micro).

I understand there are many key differences in game mechanics between games like DOTA and PoE, but I still don't quite understand the reasoning behind why the synchronization has to be different. I'm looking for clarification there.

Thank you to those of you who have responded to the actual topic.

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JDublinson wrote:

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Xpire wrote:

Compare games that are similar instead. Diablo 3, diablo 2, Fate, Fate 2, and so on. They have something called rubber banding instead, their engine and netcode Isn't the same as PoE, but they have similarities with the problem we see in PoE, called Desync.

My original post was inspired by a quote from the developers of GGG about the reasoning behind why ARPGs can't use the same approach to synchronization as MOBAs. MOBAs use a "wait for the server to respond before showing any action on the client" approach. The reasoning for why this isn't possible in an ARPG was given as "because it feels terrible to control". My question is, if this is true, how does it work for MOBAs then? If a slight lag isn't a problem there, why is it a problem for PoE or other ARPGs? My initial perspective was that the slight lag would be less of a problem for users than desync is currently (especially in certain troublesome spots like Brutus, where if you try to run circles around the columns you will desync terribly making it impossible to micro).

I understand there are many key differences in game mechanics between games like DOTA and PoE, but I still don't quite understand the reasoning behind why the synchronization has to be different. I'm looking for clarification there.

Thank you to those of you who have responded to the actual topic.

Basically, original ARPG's (and still some today) were offline, or at least had offline mode. Offline games feel much more actiony then games like MOBA's which are entirely online because there is no communication with a server being done. In order to maintain the fast paced fluid feel you get playing an action game they need a way to allow the client to perform actions instantaneously. That's where the action-prediction system comes in to play. Basically with a system like a MOBA uses, you lose fluidity the more latency your client has with the server. I've had bad latency spikes in games like League and can attest that the game practically becomes unplayable if you have 250+ ping.

But essentially the reason is to keep the fluidity and fast paced action that defines action games. Basically all ARPG's use this system, so it's not like desync is directly a result of it.

I just say things that i thought was common knowledge, but yet some falls astray and think all the games in the world follows the same physics when they are made from different people and have their own professional touch to it. Even when It's different platforms...

I can't tell you which numbers are different in certain ways or just how much you need to make a game engine perfect. If that was the case i wouldn't work with the things I did in life and if i knew that i would be a enormously rich motherfucker.

The only thing I know and I hope others can get a grasp Is how much games differ. Even If they are in similar genres. But seems like some guys are a lost cause and think every game in the existence run on the same built configs, net codes, servers and all that other things that the games takes into account to actually work.

It's like comparing a FPS game with PoE, like many have said. It also has a hitbox right?
Hell, It's even like comparing driving games with PoE.....

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ghost8686 wrote:

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ManiaCCC wrote:

I have to agree however, I have hard times to see some big differences between moba games and ARPGs if we are talking about net-code and desync..Also old fairy-tale about D3 (Auto hitting monsters) finally has been proved as fairy-tale..

in PoE ..there is not any additional "dice roll"..hit will either connect or not ...if hit will connect, there is check for evade/dodge/whatever ...exactly like in any another ARPG or MOBA..

So problem has to be somewhere else..

That's not correct. In a MOBA, if using an auto attack or targeted spell, once the attack is launched it auto-connects. Maybe there is a roll AFTER it hits to determine whether the attack is blocked or dodged or something, but it IS going to hit. In path of exile, every ability in the game pretty much can simply miss the intended target if they move a tiny bit. The only similarity to League in terms of attacking is league's "skill shots" which only hit if the attack hits the targets hit box. However none of that has anything to do with desync anyways.

That's why I said you are totally clueless, because you obviously either did not play LoL or did not get to learn enough of it.

Use ANY linear targeting skill and click ON the enemy. If they move out of the projectile as the projectile approaches it is a miss. If target fails to move out of its way, hide behind a minion, teleport etc, and it connects with the target; then if target has any block calculations it checks, if skill has crit chance it checks, and armor/magic res reductions check.

There are also melee range skills that work exactly same. move out of its way before it hits the land and you evade it.

Now tell me again how this is any different than the *special mechanics* PoE has?

Bottomline, PoE' special ability to evade attacks by moving away is not unique to PoE. Other games have it. In LoL auto attacks does not have it as a design choice, not as a lack of mechanics. They add this mechanics to certain skills instead to balance control difficulty of different champs.

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symban wrote:

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ghost8686 wrote:

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ManiaCCC wrote:

I have to agree however, I have hard times to see some big differences between moba games and ARPGs if we are talking about net-code and desync..Also old fairy-tale about D3 (Auto hitting monsters) finally has been proved as fairy-tale..

in PoE ..there is not any additional "dice roll"..hit will either connect or not ...if hit will connect, there is check for evade/dodge/whatever ...exactly like in any another ARPG or MOBA..

So problem has to be somewhere else..

That's not correct. In a MOBA, if using an auto attack or targeted spell, once the attack is launched it auto-connects. Maybe there is a roll AFTER it hits to determine whether the attack is blocked or dodged or something, but it IS going to hit. In path of exile, every ability in the game pretty much can simply miss the intended target if they move a tiny bit. The only similarity to League in terms of attacking is league's "skill shots" which only hit if the attack hits the targets hit box. However none of that has anything to do with desync anyways.

That's why I said you are totally clueless, because you obviously either did not play LoL or did not get to learn enough of it.

Use ANY linear targeting skill and click ON the enemy. If they move out of the projectile as the projectile approaches it is a miss. If target fails to move out of its way, hide behind a minion, teleport etc, and it connects with the target; then if target has any block calculations it checks, if skill has crit chance it checks, and armor/magic res reductions check.

There are also melee range skills that work exactly same. move out of its way before it hits the land and you evade it.

Now tell me again how this is any different than the *special mechanics* PoE has?

Bottomline, PoE' special ability to evade attacks by moving away is not unique to PoE. Other games have it. In LoL auto attacks does not have it as a design choice, not as a lack of mechanics. They add this mechanics to certain skills instead to balance control difficulty of different champs.

And why do you think they made that choice?

They're different games. I've never had any desync in LoL, and the desync here I have learned to live with by /oos spamming. It was annoying at first, but it's second nature now.

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Telzen wrote:

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symban wrote:

in LoL use ANY linear targeting skill and click ON the enemy. If they move out of the projectile as the projectile approaches it is a miss. If target fails to move out of its way, hide behind a minion, teleport etc, and it connects with the target; then if target has any block calculations it checks, if skill has crit chance it checks, and armor/magic res reductions check.

There are also melee range skills that work exactly same. move out of its way before it hits the land and you evade it.

Now tell me again how this is any different than the *special mechanics* PoE has?

Bottomline, PoE' special ability to evade attacks by moving away is not unique to PoE. Other games have it. In LoL auto attacks does not have it as a design choice, not as a lack of mechanics. They add this mechanics to certain skills instead to balance control difficulty of different champs.

And why do you think they made that choice?

Because they have heard of something called "optimization" and "gameplay quality" perhaps? You name it.

At the moment PoE is like a manual car that has those amazing handling abilities, other cars choose not to do. But because PoE can not handle those mechanics every time you attempt to speed it switch gears out of controls. So you have to go slow to be able to ride.

Point is, if PoE gameplay suffer more with design choice to keep these mechanics, compared to the contribution of those mechanics; it is a design flaw and must be fixed.

Main reason people defend how awesome PoE mechanics to deserve desynch is the ability to evade attacks by disengaging. Any attempt to do that will result in desynch %100. So we never do it. What is the frikking point of that mechanic then?

MOBAs (at the very least LoL) has the same mechanic for certain skills and it does not desynch. Probably because they were wise enough to admit attempting to put that on all attacks would mess things and they prefered a smooth gameplay by limiting that mechanic to certain skills.

On the other hand GGG does not even agree to give an option to turn off those horrible Act3x particle effects.

Conclusion: PoE desynch is not a result of different mechanics or game system. It is a problem with optimization and netcode for the sake of perfectionism and hackophobia.

For a game that suffers so much from hackophobia, we have way to much RMT and botting going on.

And for a game that aims perfection, there is something called doing best that you can handle. If you cant get it work, dont do it. PoE needs to take a step back, reevaluate the value of the mechanics that cause desynch, and remove them until they can make them work properly.