post-OB leagues, currency values

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aimlessgun wrote:

How time efficient is the name matching process? You mention needing dozens of stash tabs to do it, that has to take a nonzero amount of time to pull alchs out of (while selling for alteration and alchemy shards takes essentially zero time). Like really counting out the time to put the item into the stash, make the name match, then find it again and pull it out along with the match.

Well thats where the value of each rare comes into play.
3 rares = 1 alch vs 13.25 rares, when doing alts, or vs 4 rares when doing the chaos recipe.
Key is balance, right now its really out of balance and the few people who can do it, are the people with tons of stash tabs (FYI, I'm one of those people).

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aimlessgun wrote:

On the devaluation of alchs, there's a limit to that since an alch and a scouring will always be worth a chaos. However since our ability to acquire scourings* is fairly limited, I suppose its possible that eventually scouring will make up the bulk of that, maybe two thirds or even three fourths of the chaos.

*Only way to get scouring is via 4x chance orb, and the only way to farm for THOSE is to trade in junk uniques with a nontrivial recipe to get 5 chances. 1.25 scourings per junk unique injects very few scourings into the economy compared to the alch recipe. When I say the chance recipe is nontrivial, I mean it takes some logistical effort to locate and/or store the matching item types (since it has to be the exact same item type. Suggestion: make it the same item SLOT).

Scours are more common than alch or chaos in a drop.

I also think that recipe for 5 chances is about right, its really just 1 rare, 1 unique and a little time. for 1.25 alchs.

I have also joined that group of people: I have enough stash tabs to farm alchs.

I refrained from making this complaint until now, because otherwise it'd just be another one of those: "omg stash tabs P2W blah!" That's really not what I think. I just want 4:3 fusing:alch to actually be a practical balance from a farming standpoint.

Aimless is right, there is a definite non-zero startup time. You can do it incrementally, by starting with hoarding only 2x2, 3x1, 4x1 items. By the time you have 10 pages or so full, about every 3 items you drop in there pops out an alch. Of course, there's a bit more science to this, but that's my experience.

After the league is old enough, it's precise. 2 more items in the stash = 1 more alch, on average. If you dump 10 inventories of rares into your stash, you can count on around 30 additional alchs of income from that play session. You just need a big enough collection to make that true. From that point on, you're farming wealth 10x faster than the other guy. Is that okay? I think, certainly not. The player with a big stash should get a benefit for his contribution, but not 10x.

To make a point: there was a guy in hardcore some time ago, he used to trade 10 rares for 1 alch. Of course, he made a killing on this trade, because people vendoring rares need about 25 of them to make a fusing. (by the way, to that guy, I'm sorry! I used to give him a really hard time on global chat. I wasn't being fair)

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Zakaluka wrote:

To make a point: there was a guy in hardcore some time ago, he used to trade 10 rares for 1 alch. Of course, he made a killing on this trade, because people vendoring rares need about 25 of them to make a fusing. (by the way, to that guy, I'm sorry! I used to give him a really hard time on global chat. I wasn't being fair)

I was one of those guys, and I worked with that guy to make even more matched, we both agreed not to go less than 10 to keep the market primed for us. However, its worse. Because as time goes on people will catch on and have even more tabs, and able to go as low as 3 to 1 ratio. Buying off players. However, I expect it will never get to 3 to 1, because alchs will not be worth as much at that point in time as they will truly flood the market.

Another food for thought is that also making these many alchs, you in theory even have a better ratio.

Lets say I have unlimited tabs.

I get 100 rares from people and pay them at a 4 to 1 ratio. I make 50 alchs. With those 50 alchs I make 50 rares. So now I have 25 alchs. I take those 25 alchs make 25 rares. Now I have 12 more alchs. Take those 12 alchs make 12 rares, Now I have 6 rares, take those 6 make 3 alchs. Take those 3 alchs make 3 rares, take those 3 rares.

Now at the end of the 100 rares, I will have a total of 96 alch chances at something good. So now we are talking really almost 1:1 ratio for rares to alchs, in the long run.

You can even do something else, you can convert alchs to chaos. With the added bonus to making really nice ring chances. Everyone knows the chaos recipe is held up by rings (you need 2 rings per chaos +6 other rares) Getting 6 rares is pretty easy, but its the rings that hold you up.
So you take your alchs from the alch recipe and use them on rings. Every 4 rares (2 alchs = 2 rings) + 6 rares (1 of each slot) = chaos. With the bonus of you get rolls on rings.


Anyways just more food for thought on why you should increase the recipe of rares to alchs.

I'm not as good at math as everyone else is *Looks at DDT*, BUT, here's the problem.

Bit of background first. I have 47 stash pages. When full, with helms and chests, I can make anywhere from 100-135 alchs, and some small number of regals. If I trade with someone else who has a large stash, as I've done, we each tend to be able to make 30-40 Regals each.


Currently, in default, ppl will say the ratio is 6-7 per GCP. Personally, I find this to not be the case. For "kicks", I will often start at 8 per GCP and see if there's any takers. Often times, there is not. So, I will then bump it to 9. This is where people tend to bite. So, at least in my experience. 9:1 is the true alch:GCP ratio.

If the pendulum were swung, without changing rare names, to 3 per alch, we could make around 75 alchs combined. However, since this would drastically reduce the amount of alchs in the economy. And I mean drastically, this would probably bring alchs back down to their "known" ratio of 6:1.

I think that a scour+alch != chaos by the way. In pure functionality yes, but scourings have a secondary use, which makes a scour+alch worth slightly more than a chaos which has 1 use.

As far as the current system is concerned, and "gaining wealth" I can say one thing. I RARELY am able to SELL regals. I personally consider them "trader fodder". As an example, yesterday Moosifer found a Dream Fragments. Someone offered something like 15 Fusings + 3 GCP or w/e. I, even though I already own one, knew that I saw one selling for 8+ GCP the other day. So I countered with 16 Fusings + 10 Regals. The Regals to me have very little value, as with alchs. This is because I have plenty and know how hard they are to sell. Moosifer needed the Regals, I won, and will put the ring up for sale. I tell this story, because it does give leverage IF someone needs them, or if someone is willing to accept x # of regals as part of a trade. Since this means I'm basically getting that item for that much less than the next person.

I use them as leverage. Which seems backwards to me.

EDIT; Currently, I and several others have also agreed to not "dump" regals for a low price. Thus attempting to keep the market as stable as possible, and earning us the most profit.

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Zakaluka wrote:

Aimless is right, there is a definite non-zero startup time. You can do it incrementally, by starting with hoarding only 2x2, 3x1, 4x1 items. By the time you have 10 pages or so full, about every 3 items you drop in there pops out an alch. Of course, there's a bit more science to this, but that's my experience.

After the league is old enough, it's precise. 2 more items in the stash = 1 more alch, on average. If you dump 10 inventories of rares into your stash, you can count on around 30 additional alchs of income from that play session. You just need a big enough collection to make that true. From that point on, you're farming wealth 10x faster than the other guy. Is that okay? I think, certainly not. The player with a big stash should get a benefit for his contribution, but not 10x.

Is management of this based on a 3rd party tool though? If GGG broke all third party search and match stuff, would the time involved in matching start to be more in line with the reward?

Or am I completely misunderstanding the process of farming alchs?

Imo this is what should happen:

Double the number of alt shards from vendoring items.
Increase the cost of a jeweller orb at the vendor from 4 alts to 5.
Reduce the reward for 6 socket items to 5 jewellers (down from 7)
Increase the reward from the chance recipe to 12 chances (up from 5)
Adjust the regal recipe to be 2 triples (ie 3 items with 1 name, and 3 items with another name) for a regal.
Add an exalted recipe (maybe... would have to be something really hard of course)


This would address a number of problems:
The imbalance between vendoring items and saving for alch/regal/chaos recipes will be reduced (the value received for each vendored item will be increased by ~60% after taking the first 2 changes into account)
The value of jewellers/fusings should remain roughly the same, since the reduction in the 6 socket item rewards should roughly balance the increased number traded up from alts.
The number of regals generated by the recipe will be cut in half, which would make a big difference in stopping the flood of supply.
Regals will maintain their value more easily over time due to an increase in the supply and a reduction in the price of alts (and exalteds if a recipe for that is added).
The chance recipe might actually be worth doing... currently it's far too much of a hassle for such a low reward. If this increases the supply of scours then alchs will maintain their value better, though as others have pointed out the floor on the price of alchs due to their many uses is sufficient already.

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aimlessgun wrote:

Is management of this based on a 3rd party tool though? If GGG broke all third party search and match stuff, would the time involved in matching start to be more in line with the reward?

Or am I completely misunderstanding the process of farming alchs?

They could never break all third party tools.
And even if they did, it would just be more tedious, and the few who actually kept doing it would reap much higher rewards from the regal recipe (since they would return to a much higher value due to a decreased supply) thus widening the imbalance, not fixing it.

Slightly off topic, but figured it was worth a mention.

I also think the 6 mod rare = augmentation should be changed as well.

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aimlessgun wrote:

Is management of this based on a 3rd party tool though? If GGG broke all third party search and match stuff, would the time involved in matching start to be more in line with the reward?

Or am I completely misunderstanding the process of farming alchs?

Yes, it's based on 3rd party tools.

But, you could teach yourself to do it without 3rd party tools. PoE Helper was broken for about a week once, and I learned how to alch match without it. Just takes some careful planning.

On a note, Chris mentioned briefly that he doesn't like alch matching outside the game with a 3rd party tool. He also said once that it's a mechanic people really like, so they aren't likely to "shut it off" any time soon or change the theme of that vendor recipe. They've also mentioned that there's going to be an API in the future for those third party tools.

Alch matching won't get harder. If the GGG devs want to make 3rd party tools unnecessary, they'll make it easier to finish the name-matching recipes in game.