DIABLO III ?... HA! More like "DIABLO FAIL"

"

Sickness wrote:

It was equally obvious what gear that was best for you in D2.
The skillsystem in D2 requires less thought. You decide what skill you want to use and then you take all the synergies, and that's it. Extremely simple.
In D3 you always have a ton of choices to make to get the most out of your build.

That's just completly wrong.
First of all the gear choice in Diablo 2 might have been as obvious to an experienced player but the point is that every piece of equipment you used was awesome. It had interesting stats, that was kind of a unique boost to your character like "cannot be frozen". And still for every gear-slot there were multiple items that were viable and had its own (dis)advantages.

The itemization in D2 requires a lot more insight into the game-mechanics and character planing than the items in D3.

And the if you really think the skillsystem in D2 requires less thought than I already know your type of gamer: go to fansite and look for guide - play after guide - end.
And by the way saying that you would chose one skill and than take all synergies is completly wrong and your character will always be a lot worse than characters that are planed with some thought. :)


But the real point here is that Diablo 3 is fundamentally flawed when it comes to the skill system. Atm. there are only 1-2 viable inferno builds in D3 (compared to the hell-viable builds in Diablo 2 this is pretty ridic), but even if they will manage to get this number up to.. I dont know 5? 6? ... the game would have been tremendously better with a skill tree design, because the design ideas behind it are just superior.
The only way to save D3 is an all-changing expansion, but I don't think blizz will do it. ;)

"

Sickness wrote:

It was equally obvious what gear that was best for you in D2.
The skillsystem in D2 requires less thought. You decide what skill you want to use and then you take all the synergies, and that's it. Extremely simple.
In D3 you always have a ton of choices to make to get the most out of your build.

We will probably just have to agree to disagree but

1. When I played D2 (like I said I played a limited amount of time) it was sort of like Path of Exile where different uniques were better depending upon your build which IMO requires more deliberate thought than D3's completely linear choices on gear.

2. IMO D2's skills took more effort and at least marginally more thought but I played the game before syngeries became prevalent. I don't see D3 as using much thought since you can switch out any skill at any time. You don't have to think about any particular build at all, just play the game and when you find out a skill sucks just switch it out. At least you could use equipment to compliment your builds in D2 which there is very little of in D3.

3. I still disagree that you have a ton of choices at the end gameo of D3. Your so called choices are the best skills that the developers chose to make viable or decided not to nerf. Most D3 players agree that the viable skill choices for a given class are not that many. To make it as a wizard your either using critical mass or archon.

"

Asphael wrote:

That's just completly wrong.
First of all the gear choice in Diablo 2 might have been as obvious to an experienced player but the point is that every piece of equipment you used was awesome. It had interesting stats, that was kind of a unique boost to your character like "cannot be frozen". And still for every gear-slot there were multiple items that were viable and had its own (dis)advantages.

The itemization in D2 requires a lot more insight into the game-mechanics and character planing than the items in D3.

The best way to the different stats in D3 is also only obvious if you are an experienced player.

I think that the items in D2 are more fun and better designed, but to say that they require more thought is just wrong.

"

Asphael wrote:

And the if you really think the skillsystem in D2 requires less thought than I already know your type of gamer: go to fansite and look for guide - play after guide - end.

That doesn't make any sense at all. If you play after a guide then neither system requires ANY thought, so for that type of gamer D3 can't require more thought than D2 (in regards to the skillsystem).

"

Asphael wrote:

And by the way saying that you would chose one skill and than take all synergies is completly wrong and your character will always be a lot worse than characters that are planed with some thought. :)

That's the essence of it. You want to make the skill you use as strong as possible.

"

Asphael wrote:

But the real point here is that Diablo 3 is fundamentally flawed when it comes to the skill system.

It's best skill system I have ever seen.

"

Asphael wrote:

Atm. there are only 1-2 viable inferno builds in D3

lol... That is simply not true. I am guessing that you have not played it for a while.

"

Asphael wrote:

the game would have been tremendously better with a skill tree design, because the design ideas behind it are just superior.

Why is a skill tree superior?
I hope you realise that PoE has alot more in common with D3s skill system than D2s.
I personally find the idea that you have to spec in to skills that you have no interest in just to get to the one you want to be really bad. Before synergies it really was the worst crap ever made.

I also was definitely not a big fan of vanilla D2 for the same reason sickness just posted. I eventually realized how I hated ditching the crappy skills I was forced to use like charged bolt or saving skill points like crazy until I reach a high lvl for the skills I actually did want.

That being said I still hate D3 more. Path of Exiles is much better than both systems, I don't think either game is a good comparison for the genius of Path of Exile.

I think people tend to want skill trees more so that they can make meaningful choices and plan builds which to them is more fun than D3's strange dumbed down system. I think people wanted D3 to make skill trees better instead of completely removing them.

"

iamstryker wrote:

I don't see D3 as using much thought since you can switch out any skill at any time. You don't have to think about any particular build at all, just play the game and when you find out a skill sucks just switch it out.

D2 is not so different. The fact that you can switch skills doesn't really matter. Play with every possible combination and compare them? Yeah right.
No, obviously you need to think about what skills synergizes with eachother, your playstyle and your gear. And that is less obvious than in D2.

"

iamstryker wrote:

3. I still disagree that you have a ton of choices at the end gameo of D3. Your so called choices are the best skills that the developers chose to make viable or decided not to nerf. Most D3 players agree that the viable skill choices for a given class are not that many.

Viable != optimal. And D2 is just the same.

"

iamstryker wrote:

To make it as a wizard your either using critical mass or archon.

As a sorc in D2, why would you ever go for any other than frozen orb, or maybe blizzard?

"

Sickness wrote:

D2 is not so different. The fact that you can switch skills doesn't really matter. Play with every possible combination and compare them? Yeah right.
No, obviously you need to think about what skills synergizes with eachother, your playstyle and your gear. And that is less obvious than in D2.

playstyle and gear in D3? Ok I haven't played D3 in a bit so I am not going to keep arguing about it. I will just say that this was not my experience with the game at all. My playstyle meant nothing since the skills that I liked were super underpowered compared to what other players were using in inferno. Gear that synergizes with your skills? I can only assume that this must be some of the new legendaries in the game. I've seen some of them in the forums and they aren't that exciting or interesting. Just glorified rares.

"

Sickness wrote:

Viable != optimal. And D2 is just the same.

My opinion unless someone can change it is that there were numerous viable builds in D2 that you could use the entire game and not get destoryed. In D3 there are a few builds per class that you can use throughout all difficulties. Yes this includes monster power. The only thing to do in D3 is push yourself as far as you can go, in monster power your segregated to the few viable builds per class just like when I was playing. That is not how I envisioned D3 would be. The skill system would be a ton better if all skills were viable throughout the entire game. Since they are not it has skills that end up just as useless as a lot of the skills in D2.

"

Sickness wrote:

As a sorc in D2, why would you ever go for any other than frozen orb, or maybe blizzard?

I think there were more viable than that but I'm not really trying to defend D2. Just what I don't like about D3.

"

Sickness wrote:

"

Asphael wrote:

But the real point here is that Diablo 3 is fundamentally flawed when it comes to the skill system.

It's best skill system I have ever seen.

It's total garbage.

- It offers no sense of character progression because once you've picked your skills and runes your character pretty much stays the same forever... if you use a skill tree design you know and actually can see that with every level-up your character gets stronger.
- There is no relationship to your character, because you just know your Barb isn't a WW barb... he can be anything every second and so can every other barb there is. It doesn't matter if you sit down at a different account and play a different barb - you will have the exact same experience.
- A skill tree design offers way more customization, because for every single build there is in Diablo 3,(and I don't know if you perhaps misunderstood me, I meant there are 1-2 inferno viable builds per class, not in the whole game) there would be many variations of it depending on your playstyle (defintion of customization). So instead of everybody playing the exact same double tornado WW build there would be lot of different viable options for that build.

Please note that I never said that the Diablo 2 implemantation(!) of a skill tree is perfect - it is not - but if you step back and look at the designs "skill tree" / "pick 6 skills out of a pool" it should be obvious which one offers more customization, replayability and classic "RPG" feeling.
As already mentioned here... Diablo 3 is no aRPG anymore, it is an arcade game. Something you would play in a gaming hall for 10-15 minutes of fun. And obviously the creators of Diablo 3 even wanted it that way, I mean the "destrcution!" "massacre!" pop-ups should spark some recognition.

"

As a sorc in D2, why would you ever go for any other than frozen orb, or maybe blizzard?

I don't know? Because there are a TON of different viable builds that are lots of fun? In D3 you just don't have that many builds. But as I said even if they fix that and there are more than 1-2 viable builds per class it would still be bad, because there is no way you can make a build "your" build... there is no possible way of customization.
If you have the problem "pick 6 skills and a rune for each skill and emphasize their strength buy allocating them points" it is pretty obvious that the problem "pick 6 skills and a rune for each skill" is a trivialization of the problem.

"

iamstryker wrote:

playstyle and gear in D3? Ok I haven't played D3 in a bit so I am not going to keep arguing about it. I will just say that this was not my experience with the game at all. My playstyle meant nothing since the skills that I liked were super underpowered compared to what other players were using in inferno. Gear that synergizes with your skills? I can only assume that this must be some of the new legendaries in the game. I've seen some of them in the forums and they aren't that exciting or interesting. Just glorified rares.

It's more balanced now, and also easier, so you don't have to use the optimal build to survive in inferno.

If you have offensive gear you may need more defensive skills, for example.

"

iamstryker wrote:

My opinion unless someone can change it is that there were numerous viable builds in D2 that you could use the entire game and not get destoryed. In D3 there are a few builds per class that you can use throughout all difficulties. Yes this includes monster power. The only thing to do in D3 is push yourself as far as you can go, in monster power your segregated to the few viable builds per class just like when I was playing. That is not how I envisioned D3 would be. The skill system would be a ton better if all skills were viable throughout the entire game. Since they are not it has skills that end up just as useless as a lot of the skills in D2.

Higher monster powers are for those with best gear.
The thing to do in D3, just like in D2 and PoE is to farm, and it's simply inefficient to do that on high monster power. You have not played it so maybe you shouldn't say so much about it.

"

iamstryker wrote:

I think there were more viable than that but I'm not really trying to defend D2. Just what I don't like about D3.

Viable, yes. But cold sorc is BY FAR better than fire or lightning. They don't even begin to compare.

"

Asphael wrote:

It's total garbage.

No, it's my opinion.

http://pbskids.org/arthur/games/factsopinions/factsopinions.html

"

Asphael wrote:

- It offers no sense of character progression because once you've picked your skills and runes your character pretty much stays the same forever... if you use a skill tree design you know and actually can see that with every level-up your character gets stronger.

Now THAT is garbage. While leveling you gain new skills and runes every level that does FAR MORE than a skill point in D2. Nothing really changes after level 30 in D2.

"

Asphael wrote:

- There is no relationship to your character, because you just know your Barb isn't a WW barb... he can be anything every second and so can every other barb there is. It doesn't matter if you sit down at a different account and play a different barb - you will have the exact same experience.

What does it matter what other barbs can be?

"

Asphael wrote:

- A skill tree design offers way more customization, because for every single build there is in Diablo 3,(and I don't know if you perhaps misunderstood me, I meant there are 1-2 inferno viable builds per class, not in the whole game) there would be many variations of it depending on your playstyle (defintion of customization). So instead of everybody playing the exact same double tornado WW build there would be lot of different viable options for that build.

There are way more than 1-2 inferno viable builds per class. So you are simply wrong again. Why should I listen to anything you have to say when you are clearly so ignorant on this subject?

"

Asphael wrote:

Please note that I never said that the Diablo 2 implemantation(!) of a skill tree is perfect - it is not - but if you step back and look at the designs "skill tree" / "pick 6 skills out of a pool" it should be obvious which one offers more customization, replayability and classic "RPG" feeling.

Maybe a skill tree offers more "replayability and classic "RPG" feeling", but not more customization. You get an illusion of choice, and a leveling experience that is much less varied and IMO much worse.

"

Asphael wrote:

I don't know? Because there are a TON of different viable builds that are lots of fun? In D3 you just don't have that many builds. But as I said even if they fix that and there are more than 1-2 viable builds per class it would still be bad, because there is no way you can make a build "your" build... there is no possible way of customization.
If you have the problem "pick 6 skills and a rune for each skill and emphasize their strength buy allocating them points" it is pretty obvious that the problem "pick 6 skills and a rune for each skill" is a trivialization of the problem.

You have MORE builds in D3.
This is a perfect example of the usual D2 bias. For some reason it doesn't matter that one build is far superior to the rest in D2. The rest are still "fun and viable". But in D3 you can for some unknown reason not play the "fun and viable" builds because there is one build that is best. Hypocrisy.