Dexterity should provide 1% all resists per 10 points.

"

Islidox wrote:

I think you missed the "rescale armor/evasion figures" part of my suggestion. Which means doubling the figures on current armor/evasion gear. Grace+IR shouldn't be necessary by any means, but it is, which calls for balancing.

But this will never work.

You can't just balance by "rescaling."

Evasion is fundamentally shitty without a shield -- and if you add a shield, and combine it with your "double scaled evasion" -- you break it for that character type.

So not only would an archer still get fucking insta-popped by anything that hit them, but it would make shield users overpowered as fuck.

That's the problem with the one-dimensional aspect of Evasion.

If you make it good enough for archers to viably use, then you make it overpowered for shield users.

Thus, you can't balance it like this. There needs to be a second aspect of dex/evasion that is defensive in nature, in a way that mitigates physical and/or spell damage beyond what is normally possible.

It's also why resist % wouldn't do a damn thing, nor would crit damage or anything like that.

It needs to be a defensive boost - and one that it doesn't already grant, and it has to help beyond what your "normal cap" is.

"

tikitaki wrote:

Evasion is fundamentally shitty without a shield -- and if you add a shield, and combine it with your "double scaled evasion" -- you break it for that character type.

So not only would an archer still get fucking insta-popped by anything that hit them, but it would make shield users overpowered as fuck.

That's the problem with the one-dimensional aspect of Evasion.

If you make it good enough for archers to viably use, then you make it overpowered for shield users.

Realistically, a shield user should not be able to attempt to both block and evade at the same time. When faced with an attack, you can either stand your ground and attempt to block the blow, or outmaneuver your opponent with an evasive move, but you can't simultaneously do both. A simple way to implement this restriction would be for your character to choose whether to block or evade based on your Chance to Block and Chance to Evade attributes.

For example, if your block chance and evade chance were both 30%, your character would randomly attempt to block half the time and to evade the other half of the time. But if your chance to evade was 60% while chance to block was only 30%, you'd attempt to evade twice as often as block. Thus, the better you got at one or the other skill, the more often you'd use it. (Your chance at succeeding with either tactic, however, would stay the same as it is now.)

This would allow GGG to balance evasion on its own terms, without concern for how it interacts with blocking. However, if it were implemented, I think the cap on Chance to Block should be raised to 80%, compensating for dilution from your 5% minimum Chance to Evade.

"

RogueMage wrote:

Realistically, a shield user should not be able to attempt to both block and evade at the same time. When faced with an attack, you can either stand your ground and attempt to block the blow, or outmaneuver your opponent with an evasive move, but you can't simultaneously do both.

And that's not how it works anyway, your char consciously tries to evade it first, if he has no room, he's caught flatfooted, his leg fell asleep or he just plainly sucks at it, he will try to matrix it with his dodge chance (if any) instinctively relying on his cat-like supernatural reflexes. If they failed to kick in he will only then try to meet it with his shield as a last resort. A non-evade char will just try to block it, that 5% chance to evade is more of a chance for your enemy to stab his foot then you evading the blow.

That 60% evade, 30% block would turn out like this, you got 66% chance for 60% chance to evade and 33% chance for 30% block to kick in, so:
66% * 60% + (or) 33% * 30% = 49,5% chance to avoid the attack
the way it works now:
40% * 70% = 24% chance for an enemy to hit you or 76% chance to avoid the attack
As to why, it's simple, in your suggestion you practically roll the dice for one type of avoidance over the other, in current system they all apply one after another in case of failure.

On an unrelated note, no matter how agile you are, going into an open battle without a shield is a pretty bad idea and dual-wielding is a modern fairytale stemming from old warrior legends told to wide-eyed toddlers around the firepit. It goes like this: "Lemme tell, you, children, I was young and full of shit and thought I've seen it all. And I did see all kinds of strange stuff in my time, nuff said, hell, I even knew a guy that once went into battle carrying a sword in each hand". Note 'knew' and 'once' :)

"

raics wrote:

On an unrelated note, no matter how agile you are, going into an open battle without a shield is a pretty bad idea and dual-wielding is a modern fairytale stemming from old warrior legends told to wide-eyed toddlers around the firepit. It goes like this: "Lemme tell, you, children, I was young and full of shit and thought I've seen it all. And I did see all kinds of strange stuff in my time, nuff said, hell, I even knew a guy that once went into battle carrying a sword in each hand". Note 'knew' and 'once' :)

This is pointless.

Not only does everybody know this anyway, but it has no place in a game.

On an unrelated note, magic doesn't exist in real life either.

Having spells fly out of a magical wand you hold in one hand is also a myth.

You can't apply this kind of logic to the game unless you apply it to everything, and then you're not making of Path of Exile anymore -- you're making Path of Boring History Game.

There's really no excuse for evasion to be worse than a shield when it's a cornerstone statistic.

"

tikitaki wrote:

This is pointless.

Not only does everybody know this anyway, but it has no place in a game.

On an unrelated note, magic doesn't exist in real life either.

Having spells fly out of a magical wand you hold in one hand is also a myth.

You can't apply this kind of logic to the game unless you apply it to everything, and then you're not making of Path of Exile anymore -- you're making Path of Boring History Game.

There's really no excuse for evasion to be worse than a shield when it's a cornerstone statistic.

And that's why it's an unrelated note. Even if you have magic involved somewhere it's still nice to follow basic laws of physics and common sense in thing that have no magical attributes.
Just an example:
- Fireball creates an explosion with no pressure wave? Fine, that's magic so it might be possible, who knows, cows can fly and all that.
- 20 hits per second? No problem, with various enchantments no reason you can't do it.
- A perfectly ordinary 80 pound plate armor slowing your cross-county jog only by 8% and having no effect on your action speed, now that's hardly believable.
- Being just as alert and mobile while shooting a bow compared to a hand-to-hand fighter? Now that, my friend, is utter bullshit, forget about Legolas and try doing it.

History-related and attempted realism games don't have to be boring, look at total war series and various simulators. Compare Need For Speed and GTR series, or Call of Duty and ARMA, they all have its charms but you can't really say unrealistic is necessarily better then realistic as far as games go, that's just like claiming Vindictus must be better then Chivalry.

Somebody blatantly lied to you, you can't really compare those two. If I had to pick between having only 75% chance to evade or 75% chance to block I'd pick evade any day of the week, block is completely random, evasion isn't. Anyway, evade is a basic defense method like armor and ES, it's compulsory to have one of those if you don't plan to go naked, you could even say evasion is the most basic of the basics as everyone will have some except IR users. Block is an additional defense layer, just like dodge, but more readily available.

"

raics wrote:

Somebody blatantly lied to you, you can't really compare those two. If I had to pick between having only 75% chance to evade or 75% chance to block I'd pick evade any day of the week, block is completely random, evasion isn't. Anyway, evade is a basic defense method like armor and ES, it's compulsory to have one of those if you don't plan to go naked, you could even say evasion is the most basic of the basics as everyone will have some except IR users. Block is an additional defense layer, just like dodge, but more readily available.

Well then, you have poor judgement within the game.

75% block is a shitload, and you can scale it into spell block as well - something that is impossible to do with evasion.

Your other argumenet seems to be like "archers should simply suck in this game - because shooting a bow is hard."

You could technically use that argument about anything. Why can a Wander use a shield and a wand at the same time? Shouldn't casting a spell take concentration?

By your logic, archers shouldn't even exist in this game.

What a joke.

Everybody quick, delete your archers and re-roll as wanders, because clearly archers are not intended to have a viable defense. They're supposed to just instantly die to everything because Raic thinks that constitutes "historical accuracy."

Path of Exile has nothing to do with realism. Zero. Zilch. Nadda. Even bringing it up is silly.

And you clearly don't know game mechanics all that well. If you have 75% evade you will get hit by every 4th attack, hell or high water. With block or dodge you can get hit two times in a row, so apples-for-apples evade percentage clearly works better. Spell block is a non-argument, you don't see me mentioning ondar's guile, do you?

If you build for it properly, evade is really no worse then armor. Iron reflexes is good just because of extremely lame grace and determination synergy.
But then, you were told this at every thread you appear at to spread foam and spittle all over evasion with no more arguments then 'I don't like it, it makes me die'.

Yes, Path of Exile has absolutely nothing to do with realism but that ultimately isn't the point. Even in games several time more deeply bogged down in fantasy setting, like D&D games we had stuff like 'attacks of opportunity' on casting a spell or using ranged in melee and a lot of other restrictions, yet people still played archers and mages as much as melee. No form of ranged should be as tanky as melee under any conditions. It's not a question of realism, it's a question of balance.

"

raics wrote:

And you clearly don't know game mechanics all that well.

Ad hominem attacks do not help your argument.

"

raics wrote:

If you have 75% evade you will get hit by every 4th attack, hell or high water. With block or dodge you can get hit two times in a row, so apples-for-apples evade percentage clearly works better. Spell block is a non-argument, you don't see me mentioning ondar's guile, do you?

Spell block is a non-argument? WHAT?

That's funny - but no. Spells constitute some of the deadliest things in the game. They absolutely matter.

And obviously I am aware of the entropy system. It doens't help that much in practice, though. You either get 1-shot or you don't.

PoE survival is very much a 0-1 situation. Most of the time, I take nearly no damage from anything, even with zero evasion.

Sometimes, I take an assload of damage. It is those moments that decide whether my character lives or dies. If I have enough raw mitigation and HP/ES to survive the blows.

"

raics wrote:

If you build for it properly, evade is really no worse then armor.

Clearly you are a better player than the entire hardcore community, then, and know the game better than the likes of all the 95+ Hardcore players who have never died.

No. Evasion sucks, and it especially sucks if you don't have a shield (read: use a bow).

There's no "building properly" for it. Any amount of evasion I get means sacrificing other things.

That's the nature of a min/max game. Your skill tree, your character, your gear, is all zero-sum. If you add one thing, you must subtract another.

You think I should add evasion. What should I subtract to get that evasion? Armour? ES?

"

raics wrote:

But then, you were told this at every thread you appear at to spread foam and spittle all over evasion with no more arguments then 'I don't like it'.

I know this through experience and practice.

If I go evasion, I get hit a lot less, but when I do get hit, it hurts like hell and has the potential to kill my character outright.

That's not good for a hardcore character, and understanding this shouldn't require much of a brain.

As I see it, your only argument is evasion being worse in hardcore play as long as there are enemies that can oneshot you? Right?

That's an extremely situational argument. The game has no abundance of enemies that can do that outside of some map mod and aura combos and that's ultimately a question of global game balance. As long as those don't exist (other then in form of charge-up attacks) properly built evasion setup will ultimately prevent more damage then armor.

The only reason 'armor' works better for you is iron reflexes, try building a STR archer with straight armor gear and see how good it is. IR is just a mechanics exploit, no more then a stat stick keystone.

And there are a lot of hc characters that play evasion builds. They are doing it for the challenge, because you can die if you take it too easy. Many don't like it so they make builds that can't die, make the game a yawnfest and never ask themselves 'why do I play hardcore in the first place?'

The only hard counter to evasion currently are physical spells. Thankfully, they aren't too strong but something will probably be done about it at some point. As the matter a fact we had Lightning Coil added to the game recently, if you can beat resist penalty it's awfully good. That said, I'm still not convinced uniques are the way to fix basic mechanics.

"

raics wrote:

That's an extremely situational argument. The game has no abundance of enemies that can do that outside of some map mod and aura combos and that's ultimately a question of global game balance.

But there's lots of them and they do exist - so it's NOT situational, unless you don't intend on mapping.

I can already get chunked very hard. Subtracting what little armour I have would be a good way to die.

"

raics wrote:

The only reason 'armor' works better for you is iron reflexes, try building a STR archer with straight armor gear and see how good it is. IR is just a mechanics exploit, no more then a stat stick keystone.

So you mean, not using an ES tank? Which means no Vaal pact? Which means I instantly die to reflect?

Sounds like a good idea.

Oh wait -- No.

(by the way, I don't think you know what the word 'exploit' means.)

"

raics wrote:

And there are a lot of hc characters that play evasion builds. They are doing it for the challenge, because you can die if you take it too easy. Many don't like it so they make builds that can't die, make the game a yawnfest and never ask themselves 'why do I play hardcore in the first place?

There are NOT a lot of hc characters that play evasion builds. I would love to see the statistics on it, but I would guess that if you looked at all level 85+ hardcore/onslaught characters, probably 95% of them are using armour tanks.

And yes, "challenge" is a good way of putting it, because you gimp yourself. If somebody makes an evasion character in hardcore, then their whole selling point is around them having evasion.

It will even be bragging rights. "Hey guys look at me, I'm using EVASION!" It's a novelty. People wouldn't talk that way about evasion if it was good. People talk about it that way because it's fucking terrible.

As far as a "yawn-fest" no, that's never happened. I have nearly died on my character several times already, and I probably will come close more. Hopefully I don't actually die soon, but it's always a possibility. Making my character weaker on purpose is not on my priority list.

"

raics wrote:

The only hard counter to evasion currently are physical spells.

The hard counter to evasion is getting owned because you have no mitigation.