The danger with making orbs more efficient is that you push the game faster into its end stage where a large number of the population has access to gear that is vastly superior to the content or gear that is generally bis.
The best idea proposed to far is to make a series of orbs that can only generate certain ilvl mods so the mid tier items can be crafted reliable while the mirror worthy pieces will still take 15-45 series of eternal/exalts to create.
mirror worthy item creation is at a perfect point right now, some would say its actually too easy to force mirror items with the advent of eternals.
The danger with making orbs more efficient is that you push the game faster into its end stage where a large number of the population has access to gear that is vastly superior to the content or gear that is generally bis.
This is why I think using an eternal orb should bind the item to your account. That way you can make crafting more efficient without over-saturating the item pool.
This is why I think using an eternal orb should bind the item to your account. That way you can make crafting more efficient without over-saturating the item pool.
Or, maybe there should be "eternal" NPC, who can eternal item, with price of making it account bound.
So ppl would have to choose, use eternal orb and be able to trade result or use NPC, cheaper, but not be able to ever trade/mirror result.
And BTW, mirror should be removed from game. If ppl wants to have godly item, should have to craft it himself.
The danger with making orbs more efficient is that you push the game faster into its end stage where a large number of the population has access to gear that is vastly superior to the content or gear that is generally bis.
The best idea proposed to far is to make a series of orbs that can only generate certain ilvl mods so the mid tier items can be crafted reliable while the mirror worthy pieces will still take 15-45 series of eternal/exalts to create.
mirror worthy item creation is at a perfect point right now, some would say its actually too easy to force mirror items with the advent of eternals.
Having more people in the end game is not a bad thing. Right now GGG is artificially keeping them out with RNG.
OPs entire argument is based on the fact that it should be more viable to craft than trade. This is next to impossible to accomplish unless one roll guaranteed max stats. Thereby making the sink meaningless anyways.
Using orbs is there for those who either want the best gear, which is made btw. Those who want to trade off and on. Those who dont want to trade at all. Or those who dont want to trade when all they need is an alched item in general.
Use orbs if you want. Trade if you want. You have both options.
You may have both options, but as you said yourself, you don't have both options with equal viability. Hell, I even agree with you that no amount of tweaking, ever, could make crafting equally or more viable than trading. This is fine.
However, that doesn't mean that crafting cannot be more viable than it currently is, and that trading could not be less viable than it currently is (which would improve the relative viability of crafting).
I believe we could achieve a balance where the optimized ("min-max") behavior pattern is not to trade exclusively, but to be one of "those who want to trade off and on." No doubt trading will be more viable overall, but perhaps we could make it so it's not more viable 99.9% of the time.
If you ask me, that's a goal worth pursuing.
but even 99.9% as viable isnt realistic. This would have to mean that orbs are so good, they can match good finds. If you understand me on that.
I would like the current system to change a little bit. And your post regarding new v used products is where I actually understood why using orbs must, and will always be less viable than trading for the vsdt majority.
The danger with making orbs more efficient is that you push the game faster into its end stage where a large number of the population has access to gear that is vastly superior to the content or gear that is generally bis.
You're completely ignoring the effect of natural drops.
All of the following events are exactly equal in terms of reaching BiS ES chest:
Using Orb of Alchemy on Vaal Regalia
Using Chaos Orb on Vaal Regalia
Natural drop of rare Vaal Regalia
If you cut the third one, you have more room available to boost the first two.
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SL4Y3R wrote:
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ScrotieMcB wrote:
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SL4Y3R wrote:
OPs entire argument is based on the fact that it should be more viable to craft than trade. This is next to impossible to accomplish unless one roll guaranteed max stats. Thereby making the sink meaningless anyways.
Using orbs is there for those who either want the best gear, which is made btw. Those who want to trade off and on. Those who dont want to trade at all. Or those who dont want to trade when all they need is an alched item in general.
Use orbs if you want. Trade if you want. You have both options.
You may have both options, but as you said yourself, you don't have both options with equal viability. Hell, I even agree with you that no amount of tweaking, ever, could make crafting equally or more viable than trading. This is fine.
However, that doesn't mean that crafting cannot be more viable than it currently is, and that trading could not be less viable than it currently is (which would improve the relative viability of crafting).
I believe we could achieve a balance where the optimized ("min-max") behavior pattern is not to trade exclusively, but to be one of "those who want to trade off and on." No doubt trading will be more viable overall, but perhaps we could make it so it's not more viable 99.9% of the time.
If you ask me, that's a goal worth pursuing.
but even 99.9% as viable isnt realistic. This would have to mean that orbs are so good, they can match good finds. If you understand me on that.
I would like the current system to change a little bit. And your post regarding new v used products is where I actually understood why using orbs must, and will always be less viable than trading for the vsdt majority.
I still stand by that post. However, in real-life economies, there is still some degree of relative competition; Walmart might not be quite as cheap as the thrift shop, but it's still very cheap for new stuff, as opposed to buying used stuff. Right now PoE has no Walmart equivalent; it's like either going thrift shop (trading) or going Sotheby's auction house (crafting).
Maybe I should research how, during economic depressions, retailers have convinced consumers to purchase new products instead of perpetuating hand-me-down cycles.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Sep 26, 2013, 2:17:14 PM
Shame that means that endgame content actually costs more than most people can afford without massive trading.
You dont have to trade at all. You just have to play a lot. People who think they can get rich by playing 3 hours a day are tards, total tards. You say, you need to trade alot. The "need" is wrong, since you dont! I made about 15 exalts in a week of docks farming. (Another 25 by trading, but still 15 without any trading.)
And the TO seems like he got no clue of POE, many people craft etc. You either never got to a point where you can craft or you're just too poor to do it. The people who want to craft, either got the currency or just craft without worrying about losing currency.
If you think people will hold onto currency forever, you're just stupid.
15 ex a week of docks farming? Do you multibox? No way you make that much unless you get uber lucky on drops. I no life farmed for almost a month with my sporker and did no where near that much.
tell that to a few of my friends who have spent 100-400 exalts to craft some of the best mirror-able items out there.
i personally just used 17 eternals in one amulet 4 days ago.
also something you completely overlooked is maps.
my group uses at least 300-500 chaos a day on maps alone.
given 10-25 chaos average to roll a half decent map, sometimes taking 50-100 for one map.
sure we cant live in a perfect world. every economy system in every single game have ALWAYS had its flaws. POE is no exemption here.
You and your friends are the 0.1% of the player-base. In 2 years of off/on playing I have seen 2 exalts, 0 eternal, 0 mirrors. And the 2 exalts I found are in Standard, which I quit playing when the Anarchy League launched.
Any change in crafting would sink currency better than increasing currency drop rates. You do not want to make it too easy to craft becasue then the sink is not doing its purpose. However I will argue that the sink is not working at all right now becasue most people are simply not using it.
I have to agree with this 100%. The best solution is to get people to attempt crafting, but I don't think this is going to happen without a complete overhaul of the current game mechanic.
One huge improvement is pretty darn simple. Don't let the use of fusing and jeweler orbs destroy and/or make an item worse. Simply doing this would improve things and GGG could leave the chance of success as-is.
Using the person that said it took him 64 fusings to 4-link his Destruction boots as an example, there is no reason the first 63 attempts that failed to 4-link the boots needed to destroy/reassign the links with every orb use. If the boots dropped with 4 sockets, 3-linked, the boots could have remained 4S/3L until the 64th fusing said "4-link".
Another example, had the boots dropped 4S/2L, they could have remained 4S/2L until a fusing returned "3L", then remained 4S/3L until a fusing returned "4L". There really is no need to have failed improvements make an item worse. A person wanting max links will continue to burn currency until successful. And I would say, if these orbs were guaranteed to not make an item worse, people would burn more of them than they do now.
What happens when you have a descent chest armor or 2-handed weapon with 4 or less sockets? You burn currency trying to get more. And after burning a ton, what are you going to do if the roll comes up 5? Unless you really, really want 6, or have tons more currency to burn, you are going to stop, because odds are, your next and subsequent bazillion attempts are going to give you something worse. So again, you are just going to stop. On the other hand, if you had the guarantee that subsequent failures wouldn't lose you the 5 sockets, you would probably continue burning currency as fast you obtained it... still searching for that 6th socket.
