Maps for end game isn't enough

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DeathTouch wrote:

I'm aware PoE is not actually a MMORPG. I was simply lumping it into that category for simplicity. And sure, a game can be successful with a much smaller fan base, and doesn't need to hit the millions. But I assume that any designer, much like any artist, wants to be as successful as possible by putting out the best product possible. And just because there might not be any game out there with a great end-game doesn't mean there shouldn't be.

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S_SienZ wrote:

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markshiu wrote:

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S_SienZ wrote:

The concept of PvP simply isn't compatible with PoE's philosophy of a player being able to build any character into any role.

Balancing would make playstyles bland, and every player who wanted to remain relevant in the end game would be forced to go for the optimal build.

The last thing I would want to see is perfectly fun PvE playstyles being nerfed to the ground because they were broken PvP.

Not exactly, Ragnarok online is exactly the same, where you customize your stats. They are not using the passive tree, but a pyramid stats (linear increase to add more particular stats).

You may not change your skill, but they have items including skills in it (sword to cast fireball), but if you have low INT (+magic attack and +MP), it will not be effective. Hint, their core stats is very balance.

Anyways, Ragnanrok online has a lot of PvE area, and they are very balance. Some private servers have town summoning, while you have boss hunt and regular leveling (official server takes even longer to reach level 99 than PoE).

I played RO but not at a high level, was still a kid back then. But from what I heard from my older cousins who played WoE on a very high level you had to build one of the few viable builds to remain relevant.

Bottomline though, this is a hack and slash ARPG, which RO is not. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that these games are similar.

And if I wanted to play RO, I'd play RO, no need to make the 2 games similar.

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S_SienZ wrote:

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DeathTouch wrote:

I'm aware PoE is not actually a MMORPG. I was simply lumping it into that category for simplicity. And sure, a game can be successful with a much smaller fan base, and doesn't need to hit the millions. But I assume that any designer, much like any artist, wants to be as successful as possible by putting out the best product possible. And just because there might not be any game out there with a great end-game doesn't mean there shouldn't be.

There is absolutely no way of achieving amazingly high numbers without dumbing down a LOT of stuff in the game. I think GGG realises this as well as Chris has mentioned that their goal is to carve out a niche market of hardcore ARPG players who love complexity and the D2 experience.

Lets face it, to achieve huge numbers one needs the casuals, and appeasing the casuals often piss off the more hardcore players, which is quite short sighted considering casuals WILL leave the moment the next "IN" game is out.

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markshiu wrote:

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S_SienZ wrote:

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markshiu wrote:

Not exactly, Ragnarok online is exactly the same, where you customize your stats. They are not using the passive tree, but a pyramid stats (linear increase to add more particular stats).

You may not change your skill, but they have items including skills in it (sword to cast fireball), but if you have low INT (+magic attack and +MP), it will not be effective. Hint, their core stats is very balance.

Anyways, Ragnanrok online has a lot of PvE area, and they are very balance. Some private servers have town summoning, while you have boss hunt and regular leveling (official server takes even longer to reach level 99 than PoE).

I played RO but not at a high level, was still a kid back then. But from what I heard from my older cousins who played WoE on a very high level you had to build one of the few viable builds to remain relevant.

Bottomline though, this is a hack and slash ARPG, which RO is not. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that these games are similar.

And if I wanted to play RO, I'd play RO, no need to make the 2 games similar.

My thought is, nowadays, most MMORPGs are hack and slash. Games like Aion even allows you to fly and etc. And Action games like Survival Project contains RPG aspect (itemization and skill leveling). Furthermore, games are adding social aspect. I don't see PoE will go back and say D2 was the best, and they only have D2 elements; that will not make the game competitive against the current game market.

Meanwhile, we are not making 2 games similar, but strategic PvP is an element that can be implemented, and it seems to make sense in strategy. Nonetheless, Ragnarok has similar technologies to PoE (each map is an instance), so I think based on the Ragnarok success, maybe this is something they want to explore into (not necessary the same, but mechanism maybe similar).

As for viable builds, Ragnarok has a lot of builds, and very similar to PoE. An Assassin can be Critical built (max LUK, max AGI, little DEX) or Dagger Strengh built (max AGI, high STR, mid DEX)/(max STR, high AGI, mid DEX, some VIT). Card slots within equipment, quality on equipment and etc. Of course, PoE is more advance, and if PoE is doing something similar to WoE, they should based on the strength of each class/functionality, so each can contribute in different area.

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S_SienZ wrote:

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markshiu wrote:

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S_SienZ wrote:

I played RO but not at a high level, was still a kid back then. But from what I heard from my older cousins who played WoE on a very high level you had to build one of the few viable builds to remain relevant.

Bottomline though, this is a hack and slash ARPG, which RO is not. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that these games are similar.

And if I wanted to play RO, I'd play RO, no need to make the 2 games similar.

My thought is, nowadays, most MMORPGs are hack and slash. Games like Aion even allows you to fly and etc. And Action games like Survival Project contains RPG aspect (itemization and skill leveling). Furthermore, games are adding social aspect. I don't see PoE will go back and say D2 was the best, and they only have D2 elements; that will not make the game competitive against the current game market.

Meanwhile, we are not making 2 games similar, but strategic PvP is an element that can be implemented, and it seems to make sense in strategy. Nonetheless, Ragnarok has similar technologies to PoE (each map is an instance), so I think based on the Ragnarok success, maybe this is something they want to explore into (not necessary the same, but mechanism maybe similar).

As for viable builds, Ragnarok has a lot of builds, and very similar to PoE. An Assassin can be Critical built (max LUK, max AGI, little DEX) or Dagger Strengh built (max AGI, high STR, mid DEX)/(max STR, high AGI, mid DEX, some VIT). Card slots within equipment, quality on equipment and etc. Of course, PoE is more advance, and if PoE is doing something similar to WoE, they should based on the strength of each class/functionality, so each can contribute in different area.

PoE should not try and compete with MMOs. It will most likely lose, as MMOs need strong communities to survive. It will be much better to try and carve out it's own niche. With modes like cut-throat for people who like PvP, I don't see a need for molding endgame based on PvP. Not only will this drive away PvE lovers, but by doing so they will be putting themselves in the same category as MMOs with endgame PvP like WoW / GW2.

And imo it's silly to even compare the amount of viable builds in RO to PoE. To build on your example of the Assassin, "diversity" was essentially different ratios of AGI, DEX and LUK. Pre-3rd job I believe every strong Assassin was built around Sonic Blow. Monks were built around Asura Strike and etc. In PoE you can make bow Marauders, melee Rangers, hell even weaponless characters with Facebreakers, you just don't get that kind of actual diversity nowadays.

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pneuma wrote:

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Chris wrote:

What game have you guys played that had a great end-game? Please disregard any super content-heavy ones like MMORPGs that cost two hundred million dollars to make.

The mother of all RPG endgames: Disgaea/NIS-style item world.

In PoE parlance it would be inputting an item (and possibly a currency item for admission cost) and generating a map/boss/macguffin with mods based on the mods on the item. You can't use the badass item while you're inside it, and the more badass the item the much harder the area.

The suggestion thread "Shrine of Exile" was pretty close, but that was for transmogrifying items into runnable areas. This would be more for min/maxing the mods on the gear.

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golem09 wrote:

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pneuma wrote:

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Chris wrote:

What game have you guys played that had a great end-game? Please disregard any super content-heavy ones like MMORPGs that cost two hundred million dollars to make.

The mother of all RPG endgames: Disgaea/NIS-style item world.

In PoE parlance it would be inputting an item (and possibly a currency item for admission cost) and generating a map/boss/macguffin with mods based on the mods on the item. You can't use the badass item while you're inside it, and the more badass the item the much harder the area.

The suggestion thread "Shrine of Exile" was pretty close, but that was for transmogrifying items into runnable areas. This would be more for min/maxing the mods on the gear.

Not to forget that the reward for defeating that boss is an improvement of that piece of gear.

Basically, to put it like Borderlands 2, I would joypuke my face off, if this was implemented.

Also, I still think an endless dungeon without loot and exp would be great, to test out your characters and compare them by how far you get in. And special prizes for really far in levels.