Evasion vs Armor : some feedback

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Autocthon wrote:

If I rolled a map like

Fleet Deadly
Vulnerability -Max Resist

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ancalagon3000 wrote:

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Autocthon wrote:

If I rolled a map like

Fleet Deadly
Vulnerability -Max Resist

you'd be retarded to do that with some dual wielding evasion build LOL

I think you are missing the point a build i would use would be block / spell block (same as evasion except better vs reflect, spells), crit reduction cuz mara start, EA and purity, enfeeble, SEVEN charges, STUPILY high armor ... the only sad thing about such a build is its really gear and 6link dependant for dps. (No aurora necessary either, altho obv be great)

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Autocthon wrote:

And you (like 90% of people) fall into the trap of assuming a LITERALLY god mode build should be compared to a hypothetical build which has also LITERALLY never been fully explored due to population stigma.

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Autocthon wrote:

It wo0uld suck very nearly as much with an AR character as an EV character.

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torturo wrote:

My opinion is,that pure melee eva/dodge life based builds were killed after 0.11 patch,where HP was lowered.Stacking HP was used by such builds not just it's necessary,lol,but because it worked straight as a buffer,when lack of armor leads to absorbing the full dmg dealt,and dmg spikes,ofc.When hits are rare,but unpredictable and hard, pure eva build meant literally "path of life nodes" to be viable.
So 0.11 killed it.And,of course,one mistake followed another.They changed the nodes to complex ones (eva/hp),successfully lowering HP percentage.Smart move.Like more chance to evade will improve your survivability when being hit.
IMO at this point only pure eva bow users benefit from current situation.HP melee eva builds are worse than trash now(especially shadows/rangers) and suck bad lategame.That's from my personal experience,I already used latest respec to free one of my shadows from this pain.I prepare it for CI/eva crit ranger,to be lame as fuck and hand in hand with what ggg requires from me.

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deadlylag wrote:

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torturo wrote:

My opinion is,that pure melee eva/dodge life based builds were killed after 0.11 patch,where HP was lowered.Stacking HP was used by such builds not just it's necessary,lol,but because it worked straight as a buffer,when lack of armor leads to absorbing the full dmg dealt,and dmg spikes,ofc.When hits are rare,but unpredictable and hard, pure eva build meant literally "path of life nodes" to be viable.
So 0.11 killed it.And,of course,one mistake followed another.They changed the nodes to complex ones (eva/hp),successfully lowering HP percentage.Smart move.Like more chance to evade will improve your survivability when being hit.
IMO at this point only pure eva bow users benefit from current situation.HP melee eva builds are worse than trash now(especially shadows/rangers) and suck bad lategame.That's from my personal experience,I already used latest respec to free one of my shadows from this pain.I prepare it for CI/eva crit ranger,to be lame as fuck and hand in hand with what ggg requires from me.

.11 killed a lot build.

Evasion and many other like it is a symptom of an open skill tree system. Balance cannot be achieve in an open system like PoE.

The main problem with Evasion is that it can't evade spells. In other games Evasion is design to evade all type of attacks even nukes. In PoE one of the most common attacks can't be evaded because the developers is scare to death of having to deal with unkillable builds.

Evasion is an alternative to damage migration. In an evasion build you should not be forced to take damage migration skills (resist) or gears. In PoE you need a high level of resistant to make Evasion work. As we can see this doesn't make any sense. Why would a player take Evasion if he/she is forced to take damage migration skills? It better to go pure damage migration.

To make evasion at par with damage migration several things need to happen and that's not going to pass in PoE.
1. At least 90% to Evade.
2. Evade all type of attacks.
3. High life.
4. The ability to not get one shotted.

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Autocthon wrote:

Evasion is balanced counterpoint to armour. that is all. Neither affects spells (barring one exception in PvE). Neither needs to affect spells. Resists are a separate system from both, and DO NOT HAVE ANY BEARING ON THE VIABILITY OF EVASION.

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tikitaki wrote:

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Autocthon wrote:

Evasion is balanced counterpoint to armour. that is all. Neither affects spells (barring one exception in PvE). Neither needs to affect spells. Resists are a separate system from both, and DO NOT HAVE ANY BEARING ON THE VIABILITY OF EVASION.

Balanced counterpoint!?!?

I agree with your point that D3 doesn't need to be brought up in this discussion, but you're going to have to back up the claim that evasion is a balanced counterpoint to armor. It's certainly a counterpoint, I wouldn't call it balanced.

Personally, I find my evasion characters to be much easier to keep alive just by taking the Iron Reflexes passive - even despite the recent nerf. Fuck evasion -- turn it all into armor.

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Autocthon wrote:

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tikitaki wrote:

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Autocthon wrote:

Evasion is balanced counterpoint to armour. that is all. Neither affects spells (barring one exception in PvE). Neither needs to affect spells. Resists are a separate system from both, and DO NOT HAVE ANY BEARING ON THE VIABILITY OF EVASION.

Balanced counterpoint!?!?

I agree with your point that D3 doesn't need to be brought up in this discussion, but you're going to have to back up the claim that evasion is a balanced counterpoint to armor. It's certainly a counterpoint, I wouldn't call it balanced.

Personally, I find my evasion characters to be much easier to keep alive just by taking the Iron Reflexes passive - even despite the recent nerf. Fuck evasion -- turn it all into armor.

The only thing making EV characters harder to keep alive than AR characters is a higher gear requirement. Oh and the fact that most people think "I have evasion, guess I won't need any other defenses" yet when they build an armour character they think "stack all the defenses"

I've produced math, on multiple occasions showing defensive parity (and i fact a point where EV is simply better in theory) and all proponents of armour have ever done is ignore the math and continue to blather on about how much better armour is with no mathematical proof whatsoever.

also it' "balanced counterpoint to" not "balanced counterpoint". And does a damn fine job if you make an effort to capitalize on it.

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ancalagon3000 wrote:

math = theorycraft =/= practice

(1) Explain to me why no one on hardcore with a melee builds around evasion. Because you are guaranteed to die outside of desync, that is why.
(2) What higher gear requirement? Nonsense, just evasion instead of armor on gear.
(3) I define a tanky build as something that can eat up everything in the game. I build a tank around the worst case scenario, yes. So I wont have to skip something because I cant do it. Bar Vaal Smash, which evasion could never tank if it gets through (and thats the entire point here, which you keep missing / ignoring) ... but armor can also assuming its not Maze Vaal with damage mods (you would need insane amounts of armor for it to be possible, and it still would :P )... Evasion is facing dangerous waters playing on high end maps with nasty mods. You said yourself, you would never attempt such maps as an evasion character. How can you say its superior to an armor stacking character then?
(4) Kabancheg, Nastakanoth ... streaming with armor characters on hardcore. Juhazz and Dragons build, play softcore but more than hc viable. All known tanks built around armor stacking. Some with max block and high life pools. For the only reason of soaking up the hard hits that get through. An evasion character does not have this luxury.
(5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3V4r_QAPU0&feature=youtu.be
A white beetle in city of sarn hitting for 500 dmg. ''OK''

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Autocthon wrote:

It's not whether I'd play Evasion in a nasty map, it's whether I'd even bother going in. And I wouldn't, I'd trade it to someone who has a death wish because its just not worth running a map with a good chance of killing me regardless of evasion or armour