Manually trading with people is great fun!

"

tmaciak wrote:

This is exact example, that something is broken in the very basics of this game. This is so absurd, that I have no words to comment.

I'm not getting into argument what and how they should tune map-system, but it's not intended to be free.

In that case everyone would be playing highest maps possible.

"

First RPG ever, in which hero have to pay, to be able to take quest :D What, you are want to take challenges for free? If you want to save virgin from a dragon, pay first! But you know, they say people think differently on the southern hemisphere... :P

Quest system =/= map system. A fallacy coming from you, again.

"

raics wrote:

Nobody here mentioned MMO itemization before you, dunno what's that got to do with anything.

That is an image what I got from that person. He wants free stuff, or have enough of currency when he reaches certain level to afford good enough gear. Actually, this mentality, that you can get needed gear for your level just from looking in vendor, can be applied to many people.

"

What rock have you been hiding under all these months man? Devs are literally being BOMBED with suggestions on a daily basis, most of them admittedly bad but some really good too.

I do not care for PoE forums.

"

You want my suggestions, right? Fine, I got no problems in posting them in one more place, not like it will make a difference anyway.

No, I was curious about this particular issue, not all your suggestions.

"

For example, my first suggestion wasn't improving drops but cleaning up mod pools so you have better chance to roll a decent rare.

I'm not going to fall into discussion about off-topic like this, but can present some of my points on mod pool;




Took a glimpse over rest stuff and couldn't find an answer to question I asked.

"

1988288 wrote:

I'm not going to fall into discussion about off-topic like this, but can present some of my points on mod pool;

Spoiler

On one hand - godlike items would pop-up like crazy.

On second note - people would have higher access to decent, end-game items.

In long-run items would just degrade in price, and only valuable would be like 900+ES +40%resists (and alike items), anything below that would have no value. Also nearly no point in mirroring something.

And still people would find something to whine about, and here it would be that people have worse drops than people, who're investing more time into game, or would cry about that RNGesus isn't on their side.

Took a glimpse over rest stuff and couldn't find an answer to question I asked.

Look harder, it's there, it just isn't direct.

All people need is a chance to drop decent stuff, it's pretty much psychology again. As long as the chance to get something useful is 'fair' the only one complaining are instant gratification morons and true whiners you can't please anyway, no matter what you do. If the chance is higher, or 'more than fair' you only got rid of first group, whiners are still there. However, if you drop the chance into unfair you begin to see threads by people that honestly invest their time in the game and expect something to show for it.

Well, I'm guessing you weren't around for closed beta. We had a lot cleaner mod pools then, something in the vein of what I'm suggesting here. You could drop decent stuff and drop it did, you could play with gear you found with a reasonable amount of grinding, maps were easier to access due to lower level content so not many complained about that either, after all you weren't forced to trade to play the game. But did people trade? You bet, even with slimmer mod pools great gear still has terribly low chance to drop, not everyone could have it. People traded at least as much as now, mirrored and saved currency for really great pieces, not like paying a couple exalted worth for a measly life, armor and two resist belt you can see these days.

And my suggestions wouldn't affect uniques, those would in fact drop even a bit less and would still be expensive and sought after. Also, influx of people on OB and final release can't really affect it either, ratio of buyers an sellers stays pretty much the same. Might be there would be even more buyers in the sense of 'more people with money to spend' not an army of paupers complaining about drops that we have now.

Not going to fall into off-topic, as I said. But hopefully people have presented flaws and negative effects to which mod reduction would lead, as they are quite obvious.

Also you're ignoring that there are far more players in OB than CB.

But seems I'm done here, as it's just another whine thread without any tangible solution, just subjective dislikes.

"

1988288 wrote:

Not going to fall into off-topic, as I said. But hopefully people have presented flaws and negative effects to which mod reduction would lead, as they are quite obvious.

Also you're ignoring that there are far more players in OB than CB.

But seems I'm done here, as it's just another whine thread without any tangible solution, just subjective dislikes.

You can hardly get any more on-topic than that, the problem is fairly complex and there are no simple solutions for it but fixed it can be. Some might say you ran out of arguments, but that would hold true only in the case you presented any in the first place except speculations about 'whining', 'lack of intellectual investment', 'laziness' and fairly grim prophecies about 'economy doomsday'.

Speculations aside, we actually had itemization in the state similar to one I propose and it performed admirably, or at least less poorly. I regret to see you failed to read the part about player influx, it was fairly important.

Well cheers, we had a nice chat and I hate to see you go but a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.

"

1988288 wrote:

In that case everyone would be playing highest maps possible.

So what? What the problem with people having access to endgame? Endgame should be catered behind difficulty not your ability or willing to gather wealth.

BTW I was on every map, what about you?

"

1988288 wrote:

Quest system =/= map system. A fallacy coming from you, again.

Isn't passing map a challenge? Isn't quest a challenge? It's exactly the same. Your argument is false.

"

tmaciak wrote:

"

1988288 wrote:

In that case everyone would be playing highest maps possible.

So what? What the problem with people having access to endgame? Endgame should be catered behind difficulty not your ability or willing to gather wealth.

There occacions I aggree with tmaciak are rare.
This is one of them.

What you earn (currency/leet items, experience, access to high level content) should be a function of your skill, not the time you invest in spamming trade chat and ripping people off or mindlessly farming LT2-3.

You beg to differ my good sir?

Have fun farming LT2-3 / spamming trade chat for the whole weekend to be able to run couple o 75s on Sunday's evening.

Have fun being jelly of the gear/currency to roll maps your chinese farmer buddy gets from doing LT2-3 runs with eyes closed, for 16 hours a day or you path-of-tradexile buddy gets ripping people off on trade chat.

"

tmaciak wrote:

"

1988288 wrote:

In that case everyone would be playing highest maps possible.

So what? What the problem with people having access to endgame? Endgame should be catered behind difficulty not your ability or willing to gather wealth.

First of all, a lot of problems can be addressed by replacing the word "endgame" by "the current version of the OB endgame". To distinguish it from the endgame in the release version that no-one yet knows about.

You can choose between two types of TCVOTOE:
- one were most people can easily reach it and repeat it over and over again (can you say Baal runs)
- one where not everyone can easily reach it and repeat it over and over again

GGG chose the second. Its a design choice. I am glad they did because after 100 or so Baal runs become boring.

The next question is how to limit people?
- skill-in-char-building - will lead to build convergence even worse than we have now
- skill-in-mouse-moving - now your older (richer) public starts to cry that only twitch monkeys can progress
- gear - in the end equivalent to orbs
- orbs - which translates to time spent in the game

Mmm...which solution would you take if you were running a 40 people company?

In addition, you need something to siphon off orbs from high-level players and help fight inflation. And the map system works wonders there (it does on my orbs).

So I would pose the TCVOTOE does its job.

trading would be much easier and much more fun if:

o people keep haggling on a civilized manner with no insults

o devs would 10-20 minute-mute the guys making the same
trade chat advertizements in multiple channels


imo when haggling there is no such thing as lowballing or ripping off, the b/o price of the seller is naturally too high and the price of the buyer is naturally too low, they both have to agree on a price in the middle. the buyer isn't forced to buy and the seller isn't to sell.

sellers stating no prices on their items have to expect people stating very low offers or no offers at all. the best method when selling is to state a average high price for it and saying you accept lower offers. worked perfectly on the rare trades i made.



there was an dev announcement some time ago of a "trading tab"-feature where special trading tabs are visible to others ingame and on the website and people could leave offers for items in it, seller decides which one he accepts, the offered currency is blocked while the item is on offer or the buyer rejects his offer.

never heard an update on this much desired feature, is it coming before release, chris?

"

Flapdrol wrote:

The next question is how to limit people?
- skill-in-char-building - will lead to build convergence even worse than we have now
- skill-in-mouse-moving - now your older (richer) public starts to cry that only twitch monkeys can progress
- gear - in the end equivalent to orbs
- orbs - which translates to time spent in the game

There is also the road less traveled, giving the poor critters at least a sliver of intelligence that would require us to use at most that amount. Well, on the other hand, not sure how appropriate that would be given the current state of the game. We all saw how long it took until people realized it isn't very healthy to use cyclone, incinerate or LA on heavily Lightning-thorned mobs, or that even low levels of arctic armor make you able to laugh point-blank at the ugly mugs of MP voidbearers, and that there's ultimately a reason we have so much skills available.

But no, people raised a shitstorm about those lone glimmers of basest cunning disrupting their spam-your-favorite skill-and-loot rhythm.

"

tmaciak wrote:

So what? What the problem with people having access to endgame? Endgame should be catered behind difficulty not your ability or willing to gather wealth.

What you lose that way is the excitement that you get for +1, +2. What's even better? A shipyard, the day has been made! I am not saying that it is perfect now, but the mechanic is quite in place.
And, imo, chosen map-system-mechanic is (somewhat limited, but still available for everybody)a really great way of keeping the thrill, the excitement running maps, unlike running them for just free. As Flapdrol pointed out very well - it doesn't give Baal/Mephisto run experience.

Free stuff is not fun.

"

BTW I was on every map, what about you?

What's your point?

"

Isn't passing map a challenge? Isn't quest a challenge? It's exactly the same. Your argument is false.

No, passing a map is like clearing an area, with a harder mob at the end.

Challenge is something different than that, let's say clearing all maps with no-projectile/no-totem-casted skills. You can think of challenge as testing one's skills. Questing doesn't require anything.. "Slay 30 Boars!".

"

entropus wrote:

What you earn (currency/leet items, experience, access to high level content) should be a function of your skill, not the time you invest in spamming trade chat and ripping people off or mindlessly farming LT2-3.

How do you measure skill? And why trading is not a skill one has?

"

Have fun farming LT2-3 / spamming trade chat for the whole weekend to be able to run couple o 75s on Sunday's evening.

A-ha. Sorry, I'm not buying this.

"

Have fun being jelly of the gear/currency to roll maps your chinese farmer buddy gets from doing LT2-3 runs with eyes closed, for 16 hours a day or you path-of-tradexile buddy gets ripping people off on trade chat.

No wonder that you agreed with him, as you both share narrow and prejudiced views.