Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.

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iamstryker wrote:

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ifarmpandas wrote:

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SL4Y3R wrote:

Like I said, if it didn't have your name, or anyone else's for that matter, would still feel "griefed". Also BL2 had FFA. I'm not gonna go into a tangent with that, but it seemed to work fine for them.

Your idea of a paid instanced league was fine, and is something I could see GGG allowing.

Side side note. D3 had instanced.

And? D3 also had smooth combat. I guess Smooth combat = Bad ?

Torch light 2 and Guild Wars 2 use instanced systems and did great.

GW2 was roll on loot.

If i were a dev (which im not) id think of how other games does things and how i can apply that to my game.
Not copying, not imitating.
But going:
"Oh hey, these games use Instanced loot... hmm it does have more benefit then FFA Loot... yeah ill just add that aswell as an option just incase new gamers wanna play my game".

*IF* PoE was P2P+Sub THEN it can be whatever it wants.
Its called targeting a specific demographic group thats loyal.
WoW does this, it targets casuals and has P2P+Sub.
EvE Online has went F2P but it also has a very narrow demographic group targeting, and EvE online used to be P2P+Sub back when it got its loyal demographic group i think so its much like WoW in that regard.
Guildwars 1 is B2P, also with a very specific targeting in terms of its PvP style though arguably its expanded to house casuals with added PvE content as time moved on, further lenghening the life cycle of the game and exposing a larger demographic group to intense PvP so it could have a choice to join the PvP demographic group.

*BUT* PoE is F2P... Hence it must use a wider method of attracting players to turn around a profit or even go even in terms of bills vs income.
Therefore the logical solution is to offer options for new players to choose from in terms of basic gameplay choices.
SoftCore & HardCore
FullFFALoot & Instanced/infinite timer
Full PvP Ganking & Limited PvP
And so on.
This is to fascilitate an enrapturing feeling of "This game is addicting and fun!" the first hour or so of the new players experience.
And if that hour contains any bad stuff like people stealing ones loot in public parties... well they aint gonna play PoE again most likely.

This is all marketing/psychology, basic 101 of launching a game and maintaining a loyal group of players to support the game.
I really shoudnt be writing this as GGG should already know this, and if they dont... they need to get that expertize as soon as possible.

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Planetsurvival wrote:

If i were a dev (which im not)

You really should have stopped posting there. You keep repeating the same points over and over again.

GGG isnt a multibillion dollar AAA game company, they can easily target a more narrow demographic if they wanted and still sustain.

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tropane wrote:

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Planetsurvival wrote:

If i were a dev (which im not)

You really should have stopped posting there. You keep repeating the same points over and over again.

GGG isnt a multibillion dollar AAA game company, they can easily target a more narrow demographic if they wanted and still sustain.

For a person being diamond supporter i expected more.
Some detailed post about how i was wrong?
Some explanation of how i could improve?
More then 2 sentences atleast, that would be nice.

You completely missed the points i made about psychology and marketing and demographic targeting.
I may be a novice at it, but even i recognice basic behavioral patterns and how they affect game design and player choosing to play a game or not.

Since you wont, ill do that instead:
Lets presume GGG sustains, and scares away many people.
Big deal, i mean clearly they wanted to carbon copy every good part and every flaw D2 had.
It is what the narrow group wants!
But at the same time it could be even more, something then just "Fancier D2" or "D2 2.0".
It could be its own game that is influenced by D2, with player options to accomodate even more players to enjoy wraeclast.
But whats the incentive for GGG?
Well if they are sustained on the "D2 2.0" narrow demographic group, nothing.
It just would be a good idea to let more players into a game without having a 2 meter bruiser in the way of the PoE Club saying they need to sign a deal, effectively allowing the guests inside the club to make their experience unfun and annoying.

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Planetsurvival wrote:

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tropane wrote:

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Planetsurvival wrote:

If i were a dev (which im not)

You really should have stopped posting there. You keep repeating the same points over and over again.

GGG isnt a multibillion dollar AAA game company, they can easily target a more narrow demographic if they wanted and still sustain.

For a person being diamond supporter i expected more.
Some detailed post about how i was wrong?
Some explanation of how i could improve?

You completely missed the points i made about psychology and marketing and demographic targeting.
I may be a novice at it, but even i recognice basic behavioral patterns and how they affect game design and player choosing to play a game or not.

Because you're not adding anything to the discussion by posting pseudo science assumptions as facts.

Dictating GGG how to run their game isnt going to do much good. GGG is the only one with access to player and financial data, so they are perfectly able to make adjustments if they feel its necessary for the health of the game.

You really feel they MUST change to instanced loot because YOU think they game wont survive if left unchanged? And what about XP loss on death? I'm pretty sure thats not fun? Should be removed aswell just to cater to the 'casual'?

I'm not a hardcore player by any means, but i believe in GGG's vision, and i'm enjoying myself. And i'm pretty sure you're enjoying yourself aswell.

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SL4Y3R wrote:

So did BL2. And they had FFA.

WAY off topic again though

BL2 isn't a MMORPG. You can simply just use a character editor and get any item you ever wanted. The games really aren't comparable.

BL2 is also a game I would never play with random people, which is the problem we are discussing.

Like I have said before. New and inexperienced players are punished by "loot tension" while smarter and older players are avoiding the system all together. Almost every single pro-ffa advocate in this topic has even stated they mostly avoid public games and only use them to sift through people that don't ninja items to play in private games. A recurring argument I keep seeing is "Just make friends and play with them" should be read as "Avoid loot tension because its terrible." I haven't seen a single person say "I only play public games, I don't have a single person on my friends list because public games are so much fun."

Its amazing to me that most of the pro-ffa crowd have stated that they completely avoid "loot tension" by mostly playing in private games and don't even realize it. Why avoid it if its not a great system? If you really like it you should never be playing solo or in a private group.

To Planetsurvival

If i read your post corectly it seams you think that a AAA game like wow or D3 can design their game more freely because people are paying for it? errr waaaat?

How much money do you think those games cost to develop?
Their only goal is to make that money back and earn a lot more. If anybody has to attract a wide audience it's those games.

GGG a much smaller company than Actvission/Blizzard is infenitly more free to make their game as they want.

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tropane wrote:

Because you're not adding anything to the discussion by posting pseudo science assumptions as facts.

Dictating GGG how to run their game isnt going to do much good. GGG is the only one with access to player and financial data, so they are perfectly able to make adjustments if they feel its necessary for the health of the game.

You really feel they MUST change to instanced loot because YOU think they game wont survive if left unchanged? And what about XP loss on death? I'm pretty sure thats not fun? Should be removed aswell just to cater to the 'casual'?

I'm not a hardcore player by any means, but i believe in GGG's vision, and i'm enjoying myself. And i'm pretty sure you're enjoying yourself aswell.

Ok thanks for writing more then 2 sentences.
About the pseudo science, feel free to correct me.
Im sure im not an expert at everything, so if i do make mistakes do tell.
I never demanded change, or said that my word is law.
All im saying is (maybe a little too direct) suggestions based on what i thought about and read.
Yes, there are issues with the game.
But as a ARPG, in which the very central part is looting.
The very strength of a character is 99% built on gear that one looted/traded for.
Some aspects are bigger then others and new players are used to some aspects more then others.
Such as instanced looting.
Fast selling of items by a simple short cut to move them directly to sell window (already ingame).
Respecc in a limited fashion (already ingame)


Believing blindly also wont help, one need to make sure that all bases are covered.
Even more so if one likes the game (Which i do), then one should spend time finding flaws rather then thinking "everything will work out".
One of the best way to make sure something works is to break it apart, so that the devs can improve upon it after.

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tropane wrote:

You really feel they MUST change to instanced loot because YOU think they game wont survive if left unchanged? And what about XP loss on death? I'm pretty sure thats not fun? Should be removed aswell just to cater to the 'casual'?

I'm not a hardcore player by any means, but i believe in GGG's vision, and i'm enjoying myself. And i'm pretty sure you're enjoying yourself aswell.

False equivalent - adding 5 seconds to the base timer is not the same as removing the death penalty

XP loss is a consequence for poor play or a bad build. Most players want the game to be harder because a challenge is fun. The current short timer system favors players who focus on loot over team work, it is not fun but frustrating.

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wrathmar wrote:

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tropane wrote:

You really feel they MUST change to instanced loot because YOU think they game wont survive if left unchanged? And what about XP loss on death? I'm pretty sure thats not fun? Should be removed aswell just to cater to the 'casual'?

I'm not a hardcore player by any means, but i believe in GGG's vision, and i'm enjoying myself. And i'm pretty sure you're enjoying yourself aswell.

False equivalent - adding 5 seconds to the base timer is not the same as removing the death penalty

XP loss is a consequence for poor play or a bad build. Most players want the game to be harder because a challenge is fun. The current short timer system favors players who focus on loot over team work, it is not fun but frustrating.

Thanks, i missed to point that out entirely.
We may not agree on some things but you do bring up good points sometimes :)