CI and Low Life -- totally inconsistent, Please rethink this!!!!

All that said you guys should support the idea of implicit life on gear :)

remember:

+ game flow
+ same end game ultimate items, perhaps even more endgame items
+ more viable mod variation possible (as in lightning radius would suck less)
+ helps out CI builds, but not in an overpowered manner at all

"

Real_Wolf wrote:

CI used to be viable in maps. It is now far less viable in maps. This is in part due to the way the mechanics have changed.

We could even go for blanket stupidity. Double all ES modifiers and remove GR. Do you think then that Ci would be completely useless and would be unable to map

I'm listening just fine. I'm pointing out that Slayer is not listening because he completely missed Leon's point. Leon stated that ES values are lower than in CB and mob damage is higher. This means that if you're going to get rid of GR to "try to get back to CB ES", you're going to fail miserably and just drive everyone from using ES/CI.

You're right that the mechanics have changed and I don't think you're simply proposing getting rid of GR with no other bonus to ES/CI. That said, I think you're missing my point when I said Slayer's proposed changes would not have been substantial enough to offset the loss of GR.

As for the hypothetical of doubling ES values and removing ghost reaver, let me propose an equally blanket hypothesis. What if ES never regenned at all. Would doubling or tripling the ES value be enough to run endgame maps knowing that you can only take a finite amount of damage before you die? Probably not.

You have to have a balance of ES regain along with ES totals. The reason why GR was added in the first place was because CI was limited solely to "hit and run" and thus biased towards specs like dual totemers. You balance things not because people want or complain about them, but because they contribute towards overcentralization of the metagame. If too many people objectively find life-based builds better, you should buff CI to make it more attractive. If too many people objectively find Shavronnes builds better, you should buff alternative builds or nerf Shavronnes.

"

Pavshaus wrote:

Please help me understand why it makes any sense at all for CI builds to get all the disadvantages of low life (i.e. 1hp) such as being stunned and frozen so easily and none of the advantages such as monsters being unlucky on Lori's Lantern or 100% increased rarity on Wonder Traps. This is very inconsistent and I am asking that the Dev's rethink this and either treat CI builds as being low life or not... it's simply unfair to want to have it both ways. CI has enough other challenges without having additional penalties heaped on top.

Hi OP

If you think you are gimp with a CI build, you are doing it wrong !!!

I must say... I've played many different chars.. all in HC ofcourse .. and the most overpowered char of them all has been the CI witch that I made..

and OFC you can't get 100% MF from that item.. 1 hp is FULL hp you moron..

If you are tired of getting frozen, then bring flasks of HEAT or get uniques like Fregments ring or something.. it's not really that hard..

And stop whining..

"

Singularity2635 wrote:

"

Pavshaus wrote:

Please help me understand why it makes any sense at all for CI builds to get all the disadvantages of low life (i.e. 1hp) such as being stunned and frozen so easily and none of the advantages such as monsters being unlucky on Lori's Lantern or 100% increased rarity on Wonder Traps. This is very inconsistent and I am asking that the Dev's rethink this and either treat CI builds as being low life or not... it's simply unfair to want to have it both ways. CI has enough other challenges without having additional penalties heaped on top.

Hi OP

If you think you are gimp with a CI build, you are doing it wrong !!!

I must say... I've played many different chars.. all in HC ofcourse .. and the most overpowered char of them all has been the CI witch that I made..

and OFC you can't get 100% MF from that item.. 1 hp is FULL hp you moron..

If you are tired of getting frozen, then bring flasks of HEAT or get uniques like Fregments ring or something.. it's not really that hard..

And stop whining..

I actually don't get frozen I get chilled.. Alpha Howl keeps me from getting frozen.
Flasks are a ridiculous and cumbersome to have to use over and over every 10-20 secs.. if that is what anyone defines as hardcore imho it's just lame. I was of course stating an opinion that I think that there are aspects regarding the current state of CI which stink.. if you don't agree that's ok.

Heck if you think I am doing it wrong.. I'd be glad to post my build... if I can configure things differently to make a better build I'm really opened minded about that and more than willing to admit someone may know how to do it better than what I have done. And I knew for the start that a dual claw Shadow CI might not be the easiest and most viable build out there (and yes.. I have not tried every single possible char/skill combo build)but in my opinion it should not be this cumbersome to play either... which suggest the mechanics can be improved a bit.

If you are talking about game play .. I'm sure there are a number of folks who are more adept than I am but most strategies seem to encompass a combination of distract via decoy, spell totem,or similar use flask to add skin effects, use molten shell or something of the like depending on the mob, use specter or similar as additional diversions, sometimes lay a trap.. divide mobs as much as possible, range attack as much as possible, quick close melee when you have to, use some AOE at times.. thank God for whirl so you can escape with your arse at times ...yada yada yada.. . But nothing in those strategies helps much in tight areas when you solo and you have gobs of cold casters (for example) nailing you from several directions. I do wear a Chayula so at least I don't have to deal with Stun.. but that too is unfortunate because it's a waste of the ammy slot just to alleviate a single effect which if ignored is crazy to deal with.

in few more weeks/months of playing Pav, you'll probably change your tune. Taking into consideration most of what you've said in this thread...if you were around in CB you would of pulled some kind of crazy rage-quit by now considering the changes to CI.

- It had to be nerfed slightly from before (CB).
- Start of OB... too much nerf. (In alpha they had the extra nodes, that we "now" have after CI, but Beta users didn't have them at first)
- Current state - pretty darn good, but as Moosifer and I discussed in a thread a while back:

What is needed is a "Crystal Skin" passive cluster (see ranger side of tree all the way right) to help reduce some of the nasty elemental effects etc. Located somewhere in the witch section of the tree, so that it is accessible to the 3 INT based classes. Or in the middle of the tree so all can access it.

But you have to trust some of us when we say: "GGG has CI almost in the right place. It's not totally wrong or completely OP... it's pretty much in the middle, where it should be.

"

Josephoenix wrote:

in few more weeks/months of playing Pav, you'll probably change your tune. Taking into consideration most of what you've said in this thread...if you were around in CB you would of pulled some kind of crazy rage-quit by now considering the changes to CI.

- It had to be nerfed slightly from before (CB).
- Start of OB... too much nerf. (In alpha they had the extra nodes, that we "now" have after CI, but Beta users didn't have them at first)
- Current state - pretty darn good, but as Moosifer and I discussed in a thread a while back:

What is needed is a "Crystal Skin" passive cluster (see ranger side of tree all the way right) to help reduce some of the nasty elemental effects etc. Located somewhere in the witch section of the tree, so that it is accessible to the 3 INT based classes. Or in the middle of the tree so all can access it.

But you have to trust some of us when we say: "GGG has CI almost in the right place. It's not totally wrong or completely OP... it's pretty much in the middle, where it should be.

I appreciate that thought! I guess that's why I keep pushing on ... man I'd be all for that node being a bit more accessible earlier... at present if I focus on it it will be 4 more levels for me to get there and I have to abandon increasing ES or damage or pursuing hex master to get there but from what you say it's probably worth it I guess.

"

Josephoenix wrote:

But you have to trust some of us when we say: "GGG has CI almost in the right place. It's not totally wrong or completely OP... it's pretty much in the middle, where it should be.

I will admit though since the popularity of low life builds I feel CI is missing something. I can't put my finger on it but something does feel missing. It's too similar to life now, not much better EHP than a life users like it was before and low life took the glass cannon feel away from it.

I think I'm leaning towards what Slurm's is suggestions with higher recovery and no leech, maybe if that had like 25-40% increased (not more) ES as well it would settle back into a more comfortable area.

You cannot remove the ability to leech as long as reflect is in the game.

"

unkempt wrote:

You cannot remove the ability to leech as long as reflect is in the game.

completely off topic... but in response: totally untrue.

Many ways to counter reflect, not going to go over them, do a forum search, plenty of threads about it. But leech is just one thing that "helps". Their are true solutions like lowering your dps (on one skill to kill the reflect mob), traps, mines, minions.. learning how to play...things like that.

now back on topic: Moosifer, I agree with slayers idea, just don't know how to mitigate the elemental effects without certain uniques or some passives... that's where I'm still stuck.

"

Josephoenix wrote:

"

unkempt wrote:

You cannot remove the ability to leech as long as reflect is in the game.

completely off topic... but in response: totally untrue.

Many ways to counter reflect, not going to go over them, do a forum search, plenty of threads about it. But leech is just one thing that "helps". Their are true solutions like lowering your dps (on one skill to kill the reflect mob), traps, mines, minions.. learning how to play...things like that.

now back on topic: Moosifer, I agree with slayers idea, just don't know how to mitigate the elemental effects without certain uniques or some passives... that's where I'm still stuck.

oh my god dude.

you play in the default league.

please, please, please, do not tell other people how easy things are if you are playing in the mode with infinite lives.

you don't even have to care if you die to reflect. just respawn and try again!

whats your /deaths at bro?