(Suggestion) New ideas to solve death penalty and Extra inventory slots end-game bonus grind

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Phrazz#3529 wrote:

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

To his defense in at least one thing, you can't put avoidance in a Cast When Stunned build. Or at least you shouldn't

To my defense, I only looked at his defenses, which didn't really seem that impressive. That said, you're right of course.

They are not impressive if you looked at my character like you looked at yours. But if you knew how the build worked you might understand it better.

It works off being slightly tanky with armor
reduced phys taken
phys taken as fire
64% of damage taken from hits recovered as life
24% of missing unreserved life being gained before being hit
over 40% life recoup over 3 seconds(which is overkill)
3285 regen
petrified blood.
endurance charges
consecrated ground (which raises the regen over the 3285)

And being immune to everything other than brittle/sapped/scorched. Though I think the resistances overcome scorched, sapped doesn't hurt and the build is immune to crits... So I guess it's kinda immune to those ailments as well.

Immune to crits/poison/bleeding/corrupted blood
using enfeeble on enemies...
over 100% reduced effect of curses

It could be a lot more tanky. But I am cheap and also didn't follow the dozen other guides/builds others had exactly.

The only thing I should be dying to are t17 bosses, and ubers. And that is only me dying cause I am a bad player and don't like to dodge mechanics.


edit: also progenesis

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Devellaro#7379 wrote:

The only thing I should be dying to are t17 bosses, and ubers

Why? Why should it? Especially when you factor in:

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It could be a lot more tanky. But I am cheap and also didn't follow the dozen other guides/builds others had exactly.

So I ask again; in a game where you can juice content exponentially high through atlas passive, map mods, altars, ultimatum debuffs etc., why should your character only die to X, when it CAN be "a lot more tanky"?

I don't believe you are simply standing still for every single ultimatum. My guess is you move as soon as you see your health going too low. Even if its just a knee-jerk reaction. With hinder immunity, this becomes far more reliable in ultimatums. YES even though you already have high movement speed. No one mentioned that because it literally doesn't matter. More movement speed, unlike health, is ALWAYS better. In every situation. Only time it isn't is on builds that have force-capped speed via the blight boots or otherwise.

I'll repeat again: there is no hinder bug. Whoever told you that is wrong. You are using some random thing someone told you rather than how you are ACTUALLY surviving more. Because you don't actually understand it. You THINK you do because you heard someone say "bug!". As I said in one of my first posts, that is a VERY popular thing to say when something keeps killing you and you don't want to figure out what.

Your build heavily HEAVILY relies on recovery as its "tank". A split second of additional time not taking heavy damage via nonhindered movement = full recovery you otherwise would NOT have gotten. I don't really think you fully understand your "tankiness" either based on how you are talking.


No one has ever said you AREN'T tanky....you just aren't nearly as tanky as you think, nor do you understand what can compromise your tank. Ultimatum and other small arena, massive and multiplied hits, can shut down all sources of recovery quite quickly and "seem" random. Especially if you try to dodge, and you THINK you did but oops the 20 different on-death effects and hits and things are all still hitting you because you were hindered and moving slower.

Recoup cannot ever out-speed damage. It is the nature of how it works. You would need 100% damage recouped INSTANTLY for that to happen. As such you don't even have 100% over 3 seconds. So if you take 20 big-ish hits all at once, you will die before any recoup effects even start. Because of your Progenesis and Blood aura, those hits need to be considerably higher damage BUT therein lies Ultimatum: some of the highest and fastest damage-dealing content the game has to offer.

Your build might actually be BETTER at surviving t17 bosses and ubers because you have far more time to recoup. As long as the single hit doesn't kill you, you immediately recover. That is not the case with Ultimatum, and hinder likely made you take far more hits, leading to deaths.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

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SeCKSEgai#6175 wrote:

Speaking of tricking ourselves, I'm still waiting for you to justify those seemingly made up percentage numbers in the other thread.

Are you talking about retention data? It's right there on steamcharts. For all to see. I'm not interested in carrying on this conversation again with someone who has significant trouble with the words "objective" and "subjective" and fairly basic math. Especially not in a different thread.

If you actually read the other guy's post before trying to speak for him you'd realize that you're wrong on that too. And completely missing the context of "dying in Ultimatums", in which hinder immunity is pretty much a necessity on par with corrupted blood, because of how many overlapping damages are being taken and how even a single frame of additional movement can protect you from a handful of damaging effects all at once.

You posted percentages with no reference. I gave exact numbers with a specific reference to steam.db and the numbers there did not match your claims.

And you're making the ASSUMPTION that getting slowed is causing the death. Hinder immunity doesn't prevent the OTHER SLOWS. I highly doubt Kaom's Roots or The Stampede had become particularly high in demand do minimize the movement speed redux. And having been around as long as I have bugged interactions isn't shocking as I found multiple bugs this league just through regular gameplay that shouldn't exist given how long the gems have been around.

Its disingenuous to assume the player is clueless and to disrespect the other poster and then react as if you've been personally attacked is an odd case of gaslighting.

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Phrazz#3529 wrote:

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Devellaro#7379 wrote:

The only thing I should be dying to are t17 bosses, and ubers

Why? Why should it? Especially when you factor in:

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It could be a lot more tanky. But I am cheap and also didn't follow the dozen other guides/builds others had exactly.

So I ask again; in a game where you can juice content exponentially high through atlas passive, map mods, altars, ultimatum debuffs etc., why should your character only die to X, when it CAN be "a lot more tanky"?

I don't remember you getting so snarky over these posts, at least not without taking the time for context. Not that you aren't using valid points just that things are escalated like someone without a shaper kill criticizing the game for being too easy and I would expect more teasing or satire on the semantics between those exchanges.

Incidentally, my tankiest character can technically do t17 but so far not the boss (only a handful of tries but he's an old rf so dmg is much lower now). One of his last deaths was on a blue t16 dunes (I dont think boss got any buffs) and standing next to hillock wannabe the first hit chunked for around half and as I started to move away he was already dead taking a quick second. Either the attack couldn't be blocked or he just happened to get 2 in quick succession but that death sucked, was easily avoidable otherwise while getting him to 100, one of two deaths during his 99-100 push.

And since I brought him up --- when 90% elemental, "decent" armor and hp\ep (would have to look up) and I think 75\50 block with the glancing blows, either 30% or 60% reduced extra crit dmg taken - he can still definitely be killed by degen or burst.

The issue I have with that is its not like you can just throw that many layers on any build. Poe always had issue with build diversity but now I feel like there are simply too many requirements to meet to do maven and above.

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SeCKSEgai#6175 wrote:

The issue I have with that is its not like you can just throw that many layers on any build. Poe always had issue with build diversity but now I feel like there are simply too many requirements to meet to do maven and above.

Except there are truly not many requirements for those fights and you can easily slap them with pretty mediocre day 3 shoelace gear. Damage requirements? Non existent cause you can comfortably till the fight with 3-4kk DMG, which is honestly not a lot in the version we play today. It's jst going to get easier and easier with higher damage numbers. Getting to higher damage numbers is also not really a magical act with all the changes over the years of fresh added stuff, buffs and changes.

Same for defensive layers, you slap on the obvious pick passive points depending on your build, add somewhat decent gear and you're fine to tank most of the smaller hits, and sustain yourself either with leech or regen.
Bigger hits are not that easy to face tank on shoelace but those are also easy to dodge and it shouldn't be that hard to resist the urge of eating those while you're fully aware of your underdeveloped character.

The only real exceptions are Uber fights as you can't tank much on shoelace gear, but it's also asperational content so it's not even bad that the gear or skill ceiling is higher than the tutorial endgame content.

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SeCKSEgai#6175 wrote:

And you're making the ASSUMPTION that getting slowed is causing the death.

First of all, save your posts about your OTHER thread for that other thread, not here.

Also, you're joking right?

Dude literally said the ONLY THING he changed was getting hinder immunity and now he survives much better.

It is therefore NATURAL to focus on what the hinder immunity gave him in the content he's talking about lol. Pre-hinder immunity, he dies. Post-hinder immunity, he doesn't. What changed? Slows. The shock/hinder-like "bug" he describes doesn't exist so that can be ignored. Not an assumption, that's just plain fact. It doesn't exist. So what if you "encountered other bugs before". So have I. But I'll say it again: this one doesn't exist.

Being truly disingenuous is ignoring what was said, and playing into someone else's incorrect information knowing full well that it simply isn't reality. Do you go into threads when people complain about dying with their 3k health, no defense glass cannon builds, trying to tackle juiced t17 delirious content, and say they are RIGHT? Just because you don't want to "assume" they don't know what they are doing? Even when its staring you in the face?

Hinder debuff is the ONLY thing we are talking about in this particular back and forth: there are no assumptions being made, except believing him that this is the only thing he changed and is playing "the same". My posts (and others) are based on what HE is posting, not assumptions out of left field. He is literally typing incorrect things about his own build and survivability. This isn't an assumption, its his own words.



Defenses are SIMPLE to build (in terms of COST): what isn't so simple is knowing what to layer. Most players ignore 1 very important thing and wonder why their entire defense falls apart. Maybe they have zero 100% uptime mitigation and only focused on conditional mitigation and avoidance. Maybe they have no recovery after getting hit a ton. Maybe they simply don't have enough because they didn't synergize and stack. Once you learn what I wrote in my first post here, any character can be built to be tanky well into red maps and even juiced maps, without a ton of investment. People CHOOSE not to because many only care about dps numbers going up. The second those dps numbers go DOWN in favor of defense, they scrap their defense. And then wonder why they die. As Pashid mentioned, you really DON'T need a 10million+ build to clear content. 1 million is more than enough for nearly anything, and it is EASY to get pretty much any skill to 1 million these days. Spend your effort getting DEFENSES first, and then when you don't really care about dying, switch to full offense.

Penetration doesn't care about overcapped res. if that was the case you could trivialize most of the ubers abilities.

That's why fourth vow+xibaqua is so strong.

Also efore they ruined the ultimatum shield you could convert all damage to fire +chaos also and ignore lightning + cold pen.

@pashid

Post archnem maps got more dangerous with the rare changes. Even though they've been nerfed several times since, a random rare has the potential to be dramatically more dangerous than even the map boss. The issue with that being while it used to be fairly easy to gauge the threat level.

Like if you do a poorjoys, you aren't wanting to eat corpse explosions, especially several at once. The danger is there until you clear map. But doing a rare t16 with relatively safe mods you can be chugging along and suddenly be blindsided by a rare (or packs with a few rares in tow) and get blown up before you register what happened.


@cowmoo

You're clearly convinced there is no bug and believe eliminating that source of slow alone is what increased the survival rate.

If it was the only source of slow I'd be more inclined to agree. Other slows exist so it could be something where the math is giving some negative integer and causing unintended behavior.

Every bug I ran into during Phrecia\Settlers were things I wouldn't expect to be broken. Level 20 gem+prism to level 1 20% qual --- doesn't work on everything, and the gems it wasn't working on weren't the transmogrified or whatever they're calling it, but old gems that have been in use for years.

I think the straw that broke my back was when completing abysses in lvl 81+ maps were not registering despite requiring me to fight a boss that could potentially kill me each time (given the char's damage\survival) and a long one at that given all the extra clearing and the actual boss phases.

One of the most valuable items to recently enter the scene was bugged fire resistance armor, with the bugged number allowing performance you couldn't get otherwise.

Just because something should or is supposed to work doesn't mean it does. Typically most on-line gamers have had to deal with patches that have broken things that worked prior.

Defenses aren't that simple any more --- used to be standard capped resist, decent chaos resist and a low level cast when damage taken paired with immortal call could cover you.

Now you're generally needing at least some armor for physical redux, evasion still "works" but entropy means you can think you're totally fine then instantly hit 0. Health is so important they finally gave kaom's back the 1khp vs the 500. It's now possible to hit 90% elemental resists and even backed by a solid es\hp pool with 75/50 blocking its not enough despite the armor and crit damage redux.

1mil dps isn't enough for everything, and for you to think so tells me thats why you really hide your profile. A lot of builds have a ramp up time or burst windows. I was playing around with one of my 98s and got her tooltip (not PoB) to get over 1mil --- but the weaker wave clear and have to stand still to punch meant that her standard gameplay loop would get her killed if initial salvos weren't baited (and just because its off screen doesn't mean they can't attack).

I can't even remember when they added spell suppression. It's not far from mandatory now.

We've come a long way since you could run into elder on yellow maps. I was fine (but annoyed) with Sirus. But Maven and co just end up moving the goalposts and some of the rewards. I'm not so sure I even have something I can beat Maven with now anymore even having my std roster available. When you consider the time and effort required to set that fight up, its not exactly something you want to practice and fail repeatedly.

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SeCKSEgai#6175 wrote:

@cowmoo

You're clearly convinced there is no bug and believe eliminating that source of slow alone is what increased the survival rate.

If it was the only source of slow I'd be more inclined to agree. Other slows exist so it could be something where the math is giving some negative integer and causing unintended behavior.

Every bug I ran into during Phrecia\Settlers were things I wouldn't expect to be broken. Level 20 gem+prism to level 1 20% qual --- doesn't work on everything, and the gems it wasn't working on weren't the transmogrified or whatever they're calling it, but old gems that have been in use for years.

Dude......come on man. Be serious.

There is NO BUG. That is fact

Having OTHER sources of slow is MEANINGLESS in this argument!!!!! Oh. My. God. The ONLY thing that was changed is Hinder immunity. Therefore the ONLY thing being changed is the Hinder slow. There is no "negative integer" or "unintended behaviors" lol! It's HINDER!!!!! Why the hell are you just blatantly making things up outside of the realm of reality? I could say his gpu suddenly got 30% better and that's why he stopped dying....but that would be an absolutely ridiculous comment to make based on the information that HE gave us. The. only. thing. that. changed. was. hinder. And what does Hinder do? And what's even more funny? Even if it WAS any of the crap you said that makes no sense whatsoever.....it would STILL be the hinder immunity that fixes the problem, relating in some way to movement speed.

Bug during Phrecia: you mention going from level 20 gem to level 1 20% qual. This is no bug, they REMOVED THIS some time ago lol. It was well documented. Back when they re-did quality for gems to make it far more beneficial. Again......stop making things up assuming they are bugs when they AREN'T. In fact, this further proves exactly what I've been saying about this Hinder thing lol! Things being a legitimate "bug" is the absolute very LAST assumption you should be making.

Bugged fire resit armor: a very OLD, very publicized, and very REAL bugged armor. GGG chose not to fix this because its in the graveyard. There are tons and tons of "bugged" or broken items in the graveyard. This isn't news, nor is it remotely related to this discussion. Of course there are REAL bugs.

Bugged Abyss: doesn't exist, definitely something you missed.

Just like the other guy, when you literally say INCORRECT things its not an assumption to tell you that you are wrong. You just ARE wrong. You can either accept it, take the lesson and grow from it....or fight it and live in a fantasy world and never improve. And personal attack (not you, you've been very polite and a pretty good conversation, even though we vehemently disagree) when you can't defend your actual post "content".

At the VERY LEAST, a quick google search (or a forum search) at least gets you started on what is REAL and what isn't. Legitimate bugs tend to have hundreds of posts in the "bug" section, and generally quite a few streamer mentions on youtube and the like. Things that people THINK are bugs but aren't are almost ALWAYS regularly brought up in the forum and debunked immediately. Things that simply don't exist.....don't have history anywhere. Because they literally DO NOT EXIST.

woof....


Regarding defenses being harder now than they used to be: its harder because there are more options, but its still not HARD. The only difference now is that you need essentially one additional layer of defense. But getting each defense is exactly the same as it always was. I refer you again to my very first post in this thread. The knowledge of what makes a good defense is a slight obstacle initially, but once you learn the layers, GETTING them is easy. Death is what teaches you that you need more defense, so you either choose to learn or you choose to ignore.

And please remember we aren't talking "defenses capable of tanking the pinnacle content the game has to offer with ease". We are talking "defenses capable of nullifying random one shots". AKA the bare minimum. The original conversation started with simple "Random deaths", not surviving juiced t17s and ubers.