Will bosses recover if you die or retreat?

You created a small-time mod for a video game that was more enjoyable to play than the original(because you made it.) Therefore, you know how GGG should make their games.

Consider this - when we all get bad ass gear from mfing for days upon days of game time, do you still think that the balance of bosses will be a problem when we're completely destroying them in Merciless without a challenge?

These types of games seem WAY more difficult when you first start playing, this is because PoE is designed with longevity in mind. Making a boss more balanced toward low, beginner-geared characters will make them even easier than they will already be down the road. The current system allows for new players to chisel their way through these bosses, while still making them somewhat survivable to well-geared players in the long run. It's a win-win.

If they're really concerned with this "exploit" then I can see them taking one of two routes to counter it.

1 - They add it as an option in custom leagues.
2 - They add a cast time on Portal Scrolls.

The only reason that town-running is even a concern of yours is because the bosses seem hard to you due to the fact that your gear is complete and utter trash compared to what it would be a couple months down the road. No balance necessary, just need some time invested.
Last edited by YoMicky#3367 on Jul 7, 2012, 1:23:41 AM
"
Soulmancer wrote:
Look. I am not making these claims and suggestions based on ignorance...

I created Hell Unleashed, one of the most popular and successful multiplayer mods for Diablo 2.

A mechanic I introduced was recovering bosses, if a boss was not triggered for 30 seconds it would recover. I in turn balanced bosses approriately so they could be overcome with the right strategies, party composition or gear set up. It was a much more enjoyable and smooth style of gameplay that required thought and skill... Yes sometimes your first couple attempts at a boss would result in defeat so you adjust gear and prepare and use better tactics the next time... It was a hell of a lot more excited then blindly swinging and casting spells not caring how much damage you took because at any time you can call a time out and go back to town for a gatoraid then return at your leisure... Plus you sought to avoid death because it actually meant a defeat not just some abstract xp loss.

I implemented a better system and my player base praised this aspect of my mod. You just have to balance them accordingly... The current built in exploit/cheat is a lazy way out where you don't have to worry about balancing the bosses and they can be completely over-powered forcing you to TP a dozen times. Its a poor system.

If you have to create a seperate league that limits TPing and makes bosses more interesting than so be it. But I don't want to see them same tired exploitable boss system then every Diablo clone seems to copy. The problem is bosses in later difficulties are overpowered and it requires you to TP and retreat.



This is all your opinion. How we all view things are different.

To me, "Bosses" are just glorified normal monsters. I see them as monsters that give me more loot than the rest. That's it. I don't need a cutscene before the encounter, or a cutscene after they are defeated. I don't know what YOUR idea of an interesting boss fight is, but that has nothing to do with anyone except you. So let's not try and push OUR individual opinions here as fact. A boss to me is just another monster i have to kill to progress. It's that simple. I don't go into a boss fight thinking, "OMG this is going to be so epic". No. It's just another fight with another monster. My enjoyment in ARPGs comes from other things, and boss fight aren't even on the list. Other opinions will differ.

You don't have to "abuse" this "exploit". You can simply reset the map the boss is in and rush through the mobs to get to them again. (Go to a waypoint, Ctrl+right click on map). Or wait in the dungeon right before you get them, so that the boss stage resets. It's a very simple fix if this is how you want to play. You also don't have to use a TP.
Last edited by SoujiroSeta#2390 on Jul 7, 2012, 1:37:48 AM
For better understanding of the problem we can divide players into 2 groups:

1. Dedicated players who are always looking for more challenge and like to do it hard way. The more challenge the better as that requires more and more skill involved.
2. Weekend players (casual players) - They want to breeze through the game and any major obstacle is intolerable. They don't have time or will to grind stuff or research and calculate stats for better optimization.

Of course, these 2 groups are rather stereotypical and most of players are somewhere between.

The problem to solve here is how to appeal to both groups of players. The same problem was mentioned by GGG when describing the maps mechanisms:
"Our end-game has to cater to both groups of players. Both regular and power players need to be challenged in different ways, so that they feel the need to continue to improve their characters. Our Map system allows players to pick the difficulty that they encounter."

I personally find it important to make sure the boss fights are real fights and not dumbed down by abusing certain game mechanisms. Remember that boss encounters are intended as major obstacle for player progress. It was always like that since computer games were invented. Bosses are not there to breeze them through or to fool them by using infinite resources which in this case is unlimited access to town. Every boss is designed to be defeated at single encounter. I assume the PoE designers are no different here but cannot be sure until we hear a word on that issue.

Remember if something can be exploited it WILL be exploited to death. No wonder the Torchlight 2 and Diablo 3 creators decided to implement certain mechanisms to prevent fooling bosses. I remember even D2 had The Ancients quest working in similar fashion where players were forced to complete the quest at once or else it was resetted. I don't remember anyone complaining on that mechanisms back then.

Saying that, I'm open to find a compromise and one thing which comes to my mind is adding the discussed mechanism to Hardcore league while the default league would stay like now. Since HC I preferred by me I'd be happy with that solution. :)
New generation don't know how challenging boss fights were back then, even though there was no mechanic for restricting tps at the time, there was some hellishly hard challenges decade ago in Diablo, especially if played multiplayer.

You oughta grind lower levels a few more times to be able to deal with bosses, i really miss those moments now. And its so sad that new generation just can not accept any punishment at all, all they look for where the "win button" is. They do fear too much.

See how SoujiroSeta looks into this issue, he/she sees boss fights nothing exclusive other than the rest , and he/she even admits it so easily, without any embarrassment.

Let's remember what once BrianWeissman said in "Why is Hailrake the toughest boss in the game?" topic;
"
BrianWeissman wrote:
As far as the difficulty of the current bosses, just a few things to say. We have a ton of slated improvement plans for all the boss fights in the game, all the way down to poor old Hillock.

When Brutus is completed for example, you're going to *tremble* at the thought of fighting him, it's going to be such a scary, badass challenge.

Merveil will get similar improvements, and of course, all bosses will have quite a bit to say before, during, and after you fight them. You're going to harken back to the halcyon days when Hailrake was the hardest boss in the game!

"This is too good for you, very powerful ! You want - You take"
Last edited by BrecMadak#3812 on Jul 7, 2012, 7:59:05 AM
i agree with kokoro, Boss Battle are suposed to be epic and challenging, not just "another monster" if you can go back to the town and heal yourself any time you want there will be zero challenge in all the bosses
If you don't like the exploits don't use them. If you really want a challenge solo the boss or find others who play like you do. But all games have exploits. There is no way around it. Somebody will find it and abuse it.


I don't care if people can TP during a boss encounter. I play the game how I want to play it. I don't want to play another D3. So I would hate to see regenerating bosses.
Spoiler
"
Soulmancer wrote:
Look. I am not making these claims and suggestions based on ignorance...

I created Hell Unleashed, one of the most popular and successful multiplayer mods for Diablo 2.

A mechanic I introduced was recovering bosses, if a boss was not triggered for 30 seconds it would recover. I in turn balanced bosses approriately so they could be overcome with the right strategies, party composition or gear set up. It was a much more enjoyable and smooth style of gameplay that required thought and skill... Yes sometimes your first couple attempts at a boss would result in defeat so you adjust gear and prepare and use better tactics the next time... It was a hell of a lot more excited then blindly swinging and casting spells not caring how much damage you took because at any time you can call a time out and go back to town for a gatoraid then return at your leisure... Plus you sought to avoid death because it actually meant a defeat not just some abstract xp loss.

I implemented a better system and my player base praised this aspect of my mod. You just have to balance them accordingly... The current built in exploit/cheat is a lazy way out where you don't have to worry about balancing the bosses and they can be completely over-powered forcing you to TP a dozen times. Its a poor system.

If you have to create a seperate league that limits TPing and makes bosses more interesting than so be it. But I don't want to see them same tired exploitable boss system then every Diablo clone seems to copy. The problem is bosses in later difficulties are overpowered and it requires you to TP and retreat.



Of course your playerbase praised this design decision - they were playing your mod.

POE isn't your personal mod. You need to realize that most of the players aren't you. This game isn't made *for your personal satisfaction*. You can reset instances when you die if you want that kind of challenge.

You aren't addressing the gear check aspect of this people are pointing out.

You don't seem to know that GGG has improvements on every boss coming down the pipe to make them more difficult, from Brutus to Hillock.



Last edited by King_Nikita#5702 on Jul 7, 2012, 2:34:00 PM
"
Blitz702 wrote:
If you don't like the exploits don't use them. If you really want a challenge solo the boss or find others who play like you do. But all games have exploits. There is no way around it. Somebody will find it and abuse it.


I don't care if people can TP during a boss encounter. I play the game how I want to play it. I don't want to play another D3. So I would hate to see regenerating bosses.


yeah but why they can't fix those exploits? exploits are indeed a bad thing, so why they should not care if someone exploits the game?

"
Kokoro wrote:
For better understanding of the problem we can divide players into 2 groups:

1. Dedicated players who are always looking for more challenge and like to do it hard way. The more challenge the better as that requires more and more skill involved.
2. Weekend players (casual players) - They want to breeze through the game and any major obstacle is intolerable. They don't have time or will to grind stuff or research and calculate stats for better optimization.

Of course, these 2 groups are rather stereotypical and most of players are somewhere between.

The problem to solve here is how to appeal to both groups of players. The same problem was mentioned by GGG when describing the maps mechanisms:
"Our end-game has to cater to both groups of players. Both regular and power players need to be challenged in different ways, so that they feel the need to continue to improve their characters. Our Map system allows players to pick the difficulty that they encounter."

I personally find it important to make sure the boss fights are real fights and not dumbed down by abusing certain game mechanisms. Remember that boss encounters are intended as major obstacle for player progress. It was always like that since computer games were invented. Bosses are not there to breeze them through or to fool them by using infinite resources which in this case is unlimited access to town. Every boss is designed to be defeated at single encounter. I assume the PoE designers are no different here but cannot be sure until we hear a word on that issue.

Remember if something can be exploited it WILL be exploited to death. No wonder the Torchlight 2 and Diablo 3 creators decided to implement certain mechanisms to prevent fooling bosses. I remember even D2 had The Ancients quest working in similar fashion where players were forced to complete the quest at once or else it was resetted. I don't remember anyone complaining on that mechanisms back then.

Saying that, I'm open to find a compromise and one thing which comes to my mind is adding the discussed mechanism to Hardcore league while the default league would stay like now. Since HC I preferred by me I'd be happy with that solution. :)


Ok, this is coming from my opinion and how I view your post. Perhaps you want bosses in this game to be like MMORPG bosses I.E. World of Warcraft/EQ, where if the raid dies then the bosses regen. This is an ARPG not an MMORPG. If you want to play like that then play games that cater to you.

I do not need nor want another Diablo 3 or Torchlight 2 mechanic in this game. Play those games then instead of suggesting a mechanic that most people would not want. I bought Diablo 3 sad to say and I hated that gear check mechanic. No matter how high a level I was I would still get 1 shotted. So your solution is to grind for gear? When I get to the end of the act on my current gear obviously it is good enough to beat the boss.

And please do not presume to call us "casual gamers" just because the ONLY TIME we have to play games is on our day off from a regular job. So, you say "dedicated players" just because they have no lives other than to play games?

We want a challenge as much as the next gamer but banging our head against the wall is not what we call fun. Some others have said already, if this is implemented only a handful of cookie cutter builds will ever progress and there won't be any more unique builds. Look at what happened to Diablo 3. Developers say every build is viable and when players find ingenious ways to beat Inferno they nerf the skills.
"
Kionashi wrote:
"
Blitz702 wrote:
If you don't like the exploits don't use them. If you really want a challenge solo the boss or find others who play like you do. But all games have exploits. There is no way around it. Somebody will find it and abuse it.


I don't care if people can TP during a boss encounter. I play the game how I want to play it. I don't want to play another D3. So I would hate to see regenerating bosses.


yeah but why they can't fix those exploits? exploits are indeed a bad thing, so why they should not care if someone exploits the game?



There was a thread here about another "exploit" like this. Someone was complaining that you could avoid fighting some bosses and just grab the quest item and run.

I guess the fact that I routinelly run through some areas I don't have the patience to fight through (Waterfall Cave/Pyramid) without killing any monsters would be horrifying for him.

I have had problems fighting Merveil with some low level characters and was forced to refill in town to be able to solo her. I did know that that meant I wasn't really ready to go further, but I'd rather be more careful in a higher level area looking for better gear, than grind in the areas before the boss I had problems fighting.
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