Dear GGG: You NEED to watch this video! I cannot emphasize this enough! WATCH THIS!

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Waitn4D4#0477 wrote:

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FruitLord#0833 wrote:

There probably isn't a game to serve as an example that has an endgame that is "slow and methodical" like poe2 campaign. If there was, the folks who claim they want that would soon find out they really don't. Or maybe they do find they enjoy it but game is dead because it has a 3-digit playerbase.

Exactly. The ARPG model has always been start slow and get faster and more OP as time goes on, until you are blasting end game. D2, D3, D4, POE, Lost Ark, Last Epoch, its all the same formula. No Rest for the Wicked might pull off a slower souls like experience, but I havent put enough time in to tell yet.

POE 2 is maintaining 200k+ concurrent players every day, thats still as high as their best POE 1 season AT LAUNCH let alone 45 days into a early access wipe. POE 2 is doing phenomenally well and guess what everyone is doing? Zoom zoom.

You're wrong. PoE wasn't like that. D2 doesn't have endgame, mods have and not every mod is just blasting everything. D3/D4 aren't even ARPG. Other games that are like that are usually PoE clones. And there is absolutely no reason to repeat same mistakes that PoE made over its lifetime, especially considering PoE1 still exists.

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Waitn4D4#0477 wrote:

Every time I play POE 1 for example I always quit when I hit a progression wall where I need literal mirrors to get any further. Since Im not good enough to farm mirrors and mirrors worth of currency, I opt to just stop playing that season since I get like 1 hit of dopamine a day if Im lucky, which is draining.

Omg are you me?? It took me 2 seasons of going super hard to learn this and that's all I ever played of PoE1.

I am a literal hardcore gamer who spends entirely too much money on games, I should be this game's target audience I have more money than sense.

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DemonikPath#1311 wrote:

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Waitn4D4#0477 wrote:

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FruitLord#0833 wrote:

There probably isn't a game to serve as an example that has an endgame that is "slow and methodical" like poe2 campaign. If there was, the folks who claim they want that would soon find out they really don't. Or maybe they do find they enjoy it but game is dead because it has a 3-digit playerbase.

Exactly. The ARPG model has always been start slow and get faster and more OP as time goes on, until you are blasting end game. D2, D3, D4, POE, Lost Ark, Last Epoch, its all the same formula. No Rest for the Wicked might pull off a slower souls like experience, but I havent put enough time in to tell yet.

POE 2 is maintaining 200k+ concurrent players every day, thats still as high as their best POE 1 season AT LAUNCH let alone 45 days into a early access wipe. POE 2 is doing phenomenally well and guess what everyone is doing? Zoom zoom.

You're wrong. PoE wasn't like that. D2 doesn't have endgame, mods have and not every mod is just blasting everything. D3/D4 aren't even ARPG. Other games that are like that are usually PoE clones. And there is absolutely no reason to repeat same mistakes that PoE made over its lifetime, especially considering PoE1 still exists.

Bro, what are you on? Facts are facts he laid them out.

Diablo 2's endgame was boss runs and uber farms, as fast as possible......

PoE 1? Launched in a Beta state the end game there? Docks over and over and over again as fast as possible once again, there was no change.

D3 D4? How are they not ARPG's they are literally in the line that PoE took its lineage from?

Ok, so what, TitanQuest? Loot Runs, Grimdawn? Loot Runs, it just is what it is.

Maybe PoE2 breaks the mold and becomes something different but denying facts is a little odd.

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DemonikPath#1311 wrote:

You're wrong. PoE wasn't like that. D2 doesn't have endgame, mods have and not every mod is just blasting everything. D3/D4 aren't even ARPG. Other games that are like that are usually PoE clones. And there is absolutely no reason to repeat same mistakes that PoE made over its lifetime, especially considering PoE1 still exists.

POE has been zoomy for at least the last 3 years since I started playing, but longer because the zoom meta was already well established when I started in 2022.

D3/D4 are not ARPG? OK well now youve lost everyone. What on earth do you mean and how do you quantify what an ARPG is if it doesnt include D3/D4...?

D2 has an end game its just not mapping. Its not by design but its there. People farm bosses, they MF certain areas, they min/max their builds, they do MF cow runs. Its disingenuous to think that D2 has "no end game" when literally after the game ends people play for hundreds of hours doing these things. Yes its not by design but its there all the same and its treated like an effective end game. Not to mention you can pump difficulty by doing /players and so you actually have end game progression to match the min/maxxing of your characters gear and levels.

And what if its not a mistake? POE started getting popular in the last 5 years or so... maybe its because people like to have the arc of starting on a beach as a slow poor exile and ending blasting T15 maps and dropping heaps of loot?

POE 2 needs to flatten the curve for sure, but it feels good to work for and earn the right to zoom and blast.

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DemonikPath#1311 wrote:

Uber bosses in PoE1 are nothing but overtuned garbage made to compensate for letting balance rot for so long. They are designed to overwhelm you with too many mechanics so the only way to beat them is to have broken builds. That's not a fun way to approach bosses. PoE2 campaign bosses are fun. But we are not talking about bosses. Most of the video is not about bosses. It's about general enemies. Why design hundreds of unique enemies with cool mechanics if NONE OF THEM MATTER? What's the difference between A1 zombie and a cool sun priest from A3 if they both are going to die from your one tapping your screen clear ability? You never interact with any of the enemy mechanics. They might as well just replace every single enemy in endgame with a zombie and no one playing meta builds will notice a single difference. And you can't play non-meta build because as soon as you touch Breach/Delirium/Ritual you will be met with cold truth that they straight up require you to play meta or you will fail.

the guy i quoted was talking about bosses.


but look, i get it, i absolutely do not want the game to devolve into bilbo fraggings lolcopter screennuke idiocy any more than the rest of you. poe1s fam meta became an abomination, and it was actually worse for long periods than a lot of videos people here have posted.

but poe2 is actually nowhere near as bad as that yet, yes its too far, yes it needs pulled back in. but its not poe1 yet.



the devs dont want that either, thats the issue i have. people are acting like its a binary choice between one thing and another, and that they have announced they are going to make the game a poe1 nukepuke shart simulator.


but they havent.






it is correct that at lvl1 you have a single target skill and have a bit of a fight just to take down a white mob 1v1.

somewhere in the middle you get stronger, faster and can kill a pack of white monsters without too much effort.

right at the very pinnacle if you are part of the 0.0001% wearing 4000 divines worth or mirrored gear and playing the most broken build they did not anticipate in the current meta which will be nerfed to fk at the end of the league you should be able to blow up massive amounts of monsters very fast.


that is correct balance, that is good. the question is where are the break points? at what point does the game stop feeling like pulling teeth and get tasty? at what point does it stop being tasty and start feeling very powerful? how impossible should ur gear have to be in order for it to switch from feeling powerful to extremely op?



its not this duality, this polar switch between 2 design philosophies. its a balance curve. its not right yet, they know its not right yet and they said they know its not right yet. almost nothing about balance in poe2 is right yet.

The "fact" checking in the video is all wrong. When he goes into steam and shows people leaving every 3 months he doesn't understand how seasons work. No one wants to play the same content forever--that is true--but we don't GGG pops out seasons we play and we quit. Most of us just wait for new content. Everone playing this will get bored move to another game and be back when there is a content update. The world has spoken and if we really hated this we wouldn't be back when content is added.

Yes the guy is right.
PoE1 and 2 endgame, same for d4, is horrible. Running boring maps 24/7, delete it all and the game would increase in players.
Just make endgame a ng+ with higher level harder campaign, give bosses better AI/new moves and do that until level 100 and then a lv100 ng+ with 100+ enemies. Then you are done, play new char or call it quits.

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Waitn4D4#0477 wrote:

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DemonikPath#1311 wrote:

You're wrong. PoE wasn't like that. D2 doesn't have endgame, mods have and not every mod is just blasting everything. D3/D4 aren't even ARPG. Other games that are like that are usually PoE clones. And there is absolutely no reason to repeat same mistakes that PoE made over its lifetime, especially considering PoE1 still exists.

POE has been zoomy for at least the last 3 years since I started playing, but longer because the zoom meta was already well established when I started in 2022.

D3/D4 are not ARPG? OK well now youve lost everyone. What on earth do you mean and how do you quantify what an ARPG is if it doesnt include D3/D4...?

D2 has an end game its just not mapping. Its not by design but its there. People farm bosses, they MF certain areas, they min/max their builds, they do MF cow runs. Its disingenuous to think that D2 has "no end game" when literally after the game ends people play for hundreds of hours doing these things. Yes its not by design but its there all the same and its treated like an effective end game. Not to mention you can pump difficulty by doing /players and so you actually have end game progression to match the min/maxxing of your characters gear and levels.

And what if its not a mistake? POE started getting popular in the last 5 years or so... maybe its because people like to have the arc of starting on a beach as a slow poor exile and ending blasting T15 maps and dropping heaps of loot?

POE 2 needs to flatten the curve for sure, but it feels good to work for and earn the right to zoom and blast.

And your point? You started 3 years after I quit PoE and by the time you started PoE already existed for 10 years. It only started to go downhill in 2016. PoE has started blowing up since 2015.

They don't NEED to do anything

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BK2710#6123 wrote:

Yes the guy is right.
PoE1 and 2 endgame, same for d4, is horrible. Running boring maps 24/7, delete it all and the game would increase in players.
Just make endgame a ng+ with higher level harder campaign, give bosses better AI/new moves and do that until level 100 and then a lv100 ng+ with 100+ enemies. Then you are done, play new char or call it quits.

No offense, but this literally sounds like the worst idea I've ever heard to me.

Most people hate replaying campaigns every season, I don't think that game would live long brotha.