Do all the XP penalty complainers just body brigade through the game? Honest question

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chosk80#3649 wrote:

They are probably too young to have played D2 LOD where you lose 20 or 25 percent XP out of nowhere.

AFAIK in D2 exp loss was 10%, and you got 75% of that back at your corpse. So, 2.5% exp loss.

we have to remember it's 2025. They have to make everything so basic. They had to water down both passive tree's so people will not have to think.

They clearly never played poe1. This went viral and brought in all the people that never played the original. Getting to 100 is one way to complete one of the challenges. No one is forcing you to get to 100. If you feel like doing the grind then do it if not then don't. Getting to 90-99 if just fine.

Problem is the atlas tree in poe1 made it so getting to 100 was not so bad though. They removed that too in poe2 :p

I speak for myself here.

When I play a league in POE 1, I usually go for the challenges. So my target is 36/40 or 38/40. I also try to XP as much as I can because 1 talent point is 1 talent point and getting a little bit a something is usually when of the chases in the game.

I played like this Legion, harvest, Crucible, necropolis and settlers. All my successful chars varies from lv95 to lv99.

I have always hated XP loss on death just because it breaks the flow of the game for me. Everytime I want to do a boss, something juicy there's always this "ok but if you die, you lose hours of XP", so you wait. And then you level up, sometimes a week later, and you dump your fragment and juicy stuff.
All of this feels very bad from my perspective. I don't consider myself a casual, I don't really care about level 100, challenge wise, even though I like the extra talent points.
I have experience enough with the game to know where lies the real challenges, with all the Uber stuff. I think people who wants to gatekeep casuals still have great days ahead of them.

So back to PoE 2, when I advocate for removal of XP penalty, I actually advocate for a better flow in the meaning that, if I can do an unknown boss right now, I jump in, get crushed, and be like "ok I try again asap" and not "ok I level up before I try again, or I pay someone 1 divine to do it for me".

In response to the question, "Do all the XP penalty complainers just body brigade through the game?":

I get the impression that this was a frustration post, since it proposes a uniform body of "all the XP penalty complainers" that may or may not exhibit this "body brigading" behavior.

The literal answer to your question is: No, definitely not.

I understand the temptation to lump individuals together as part of a strategy to take argumentative aim at that group more easily (rather than as distinct individuals), but among logical fallacies, that one can be known as the "guilt by association" fallacy. The association, in this case, is the voicing of complaint about the existence of the on-death XP penalty.

The general tone of the original post seemed to reinforce the headline's messaging.

Do you think that people might have become frustrated with the XP penalty as a response to a variety of causes, besides rushing headlong, without caution or due preparation, through the game's content? Do you think that there might be some aspects of the current PoE 2 that could understandably and reasonably give rise to complaints about an on-death XP penalty? I do.

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chosk80#3649 wrote:

They are probably too young to have played D2 LOD where you lose 20 or 25 percent XP out of nowhere.

I am not sure if you realized it, IRL, people who are complaining and screaming about some real life issues are typically a non issue for some of us back in the 90s and 2000s.

Although some issues are well founded to be honest, losing XP and complaining about the lack of way stones are not one of those.

Imagine pissing on the Starbucks server because the other Starbucks chain you visit regularly down the road always gives you 3 cookies with your coffee but the one that you visited out of town only gives you 2 cookies and a small brownie.

This is exactly the situation now.

Comparing a game in beta in 2025 to a game made in 2000 that had a long list of design failures that simply weren't known to be issues at the time is not the argument you think it is. D2 is far from flawless.

Why don't we make Warrior only able to do Physical damage and add in a bunch of monsters that have Physical Immunity, including story bosses, while we're at it? Or we could just remove the endgame entirely, since D2 didn't have one. What about the Well is compelling or enjoyable game design? Do we really need stash tabs beyond three? Why respec one skill point at a time, there should be an NPC in each difficulty that only resets all of your skill points at once and is only available to do that once per character per difficulty.

I can go on, but there's no point, because I'm sure you've got some wonderful strawman arguments to tell me how these things are totally okay in D2 so EXP penalty in D2 is okay too.

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alhazred70#2994 wrote:

If you're butting up against the XP penalty a lot: its because you're not playing the ARPG correctly. You're intentionally losing; Stop that. You'll enjoy the game a lot more if you stop intentionally losing.

Your instinct as a gamer playing a hack and slash ARPG when you die to often should be to go back to a previous or optional zone and farm a bit. Get some upgrades, maybe a level. Why do you think you're supposed to just steamroll ahead until the last boss dies or you reach a leveling equalibrium because you lose XP throwing your face at it faster than you gain XP? Thats not the intent of the game or genre.

Playing well in an ARPG mostly means killing things for loot until you're powerful and not dying. Unlike a souls game or a platformer or a strategy game, here the entire goal of the game is to outscale the content with a powerful character. NOT puzzle solving acumen, 4d chess, thinking 20 moves ahead, not precise flinch jumping skills at the pixel edge of a platform and not pattern recognition of what moves the enemy always does on repeat. (though ofc POE2 is weaving a bit of this in, again though its still mostly outscalable as it should be using the ARPG gameplay loop)

Imagine this mindset in a strategy game: I'll just keep using the same tactic and hope for a different result via some RNG; sounds like the definition of insanity right? Its sure as hell not gaming.

I know this seems obvious to some but the amount of complaining about XP penalty suggests that a LOT OF PEOPLE CLEARLY NEED TO HEAR IT.

Stop losing intentionally.

I read stuff like this and it makes me think "I wonder if GGG really sees it like this, and this is why they refuse to give us the option".

Because that is such a narrow view of the issues and it feels really dismissive and disrespectful of player's. It makes you sound pretentious and that you think we're all children who have to ask their parents to tie their shoes. Thing is, your not. You play the way you want, other people play it the way they want. Your way isn't better.

* For one, GGG specifically said they DON'T want this happening. They specifically said they wanted the pace to be slower and for gamers to be more mindful

* So the idea that the goal should be to just blast your way through mobs with your brain turned off because you're so OP, goes against the very philosophy GGG claims is guiding their design

* There are many reasons people are dying that have nothing to do with skill or intention. It could be bugs, areas of the screen blocked by visual effects, or lack of clarity in the design, none of which players have any control over

* It actively punishes people for wanting to explore new build options, something GGG, again, claims they want to support. Why should I lose experience I have already gained for simply learning a new build or piece of content I haven't tried.

How is it intentional that I die to content that I haven't even learned yet? How am I supposed to prepare for a new boss or mechanic when I don't know what will happen?

I get your argument can hold up in some situations, but it doesn't in most.

Also, no one is asking for it to be removed completely. We are simply asking for the option. Difficulty tiers are something that has existed in games for decades, and adults asking to simply have a choice does not make you better than us.

If you want to play hardcore, you do that. There is nothing wrong with that, and there is nothing wrong with how other people want to play the game. If you feel like your effort to get to 100 in your game mode is devalued because I got to a 100 in mine, that is your problem. Don't make your insecurities ruin other people's experience because you don't agree.

And GGG has a right to design their game however they want, but then they shouldn't give the impression they're opening the door for other players. Don't create different leagues or say you want to expand the game if you don't want to differentiate them in any meaningful way or make changes.

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Polantaris#1920 wrote:

I can go on, but there's no point, because I'm sure you've got some wonderful strawman arguments to tell me how these things are totally okay in D2 so EXP penalty in D2 is okay too.

On the flipside how do you prevent people from just facetanking highest tier maps with 20000 deaths every single League without Xp penalty? Losing a map in higher tier maps doesn't really matter because xp and loot per hour would be high even if you would lose a map 50% of the time.

Xp death penalty balances risk and reward in juicing maps in the late game. If theres no fear of death, then running the most dangerous maps even when your build isn't ready for them is worth doing all the time anyway. That teaches extremely bad player behaviour of just facetanking and kamikazeing everything.

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MEITTI#3999 wrote:

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Polantaris#1920 wrote:

I can go on, but there's no point, because I'm sure you've got some wonderful strawman arguments to tell me how these things are totally okay in D2 so EXP penalty in D2 is okay too.

On the flipside how do you prevent people from just facetanking highest tier maps with 20000 deaths every single League without Xp penalty? Losing a map in higher tier maps doesn't really matter because xp and loot per hour would be high even if you would lose a map 50% of the time.

Xp death penalty balances risk and reward in juicing maps in the late game. If theres no fear of death, then running the most dangerous maps even when your build isn't ready for them is worth doing all the time anyway. That teaches extremely bad player behaviour of just facetanking and kamikazeing everything.

give up, they dont want to understand it

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Polantaris#1920 wrote:

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chosk80#3649 wrote:

They are probably too young to have played D2 LOD where you lose 20 or 25 percent XP out of nowhere.

I am not sure if you realized it, IRL, people who are complaining and screaming about some real life issues are typically a non issue for some of us back in the 90s and 2000s.

Although some issues are well founded to be honest, losing XP and complaining about the lack of way stones are not one of those.

Imagine pissing on the Starbucks server because the other Starbucks chain you visit regularly down the road always gives you 3 cookies with your coffee but the one that you visited out of town only gives you 2 cookies and a small brownie.

This is exactly the situation now.

Comparing a game in beta in 2025 to a game made in 2000 that had a long list of design failures that simply weren't known to be issues at the time is not the argument you think it is. D2 is far from flawless.

Why don't we make Warrior only able to do Physical damage and add in a bunch of monsters that have Physical Immunity, including story bosses, while we're at it? Or we could just remove the endgame entirely, since D2 didn't have one. What about the Well is compelling or enjoyable game design? Do we really need stash tabs beyond three? Why respec one skill point at a time, there should be an NPC in each difficulty that only resets all of your skill points at once and is only available to do that once per character per difficulty.

I can go on, but there's no point, because I'm sure you've got some wonderful strawman arguments to tell me how these things are totally okay in D2 so EXP penalty in D2 is okay too.

Maybe go play Dustborn and concorde if you think 10% XP penalty is affecting you.

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MEITTI#3999 wrote:

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Polantaris#1920 wrote:

I can go on, but there's no point, because I'm sure you've got some wonderful strawman arguments to tell me how these things are totally okay in D2 so EXP penalty in D2 is okay too.

On the flipside how do you prevent people from just facetanking highest tier maps with 20000 deaths every single League without Xp penalty? Losing a map in higher tier maps doesn't really matter because xp and loot per hour would be high even if you would lose a map 50% of the time.

Xp death penalty balances risk and reward in juicing maps in the late game. If theres no fear of death, then running the most dangerous maps even when your build isn't ready for them is worth doing all the time anyway. That teaches extremely bad player behaviour of just facetanking and kamikazeing everything.

You lose your map when you die. I never said take that penalty away.

I find it interesting that the people complaining about one-death maps are also the ones that are defending EXP loss with this exact argument. So I have every reason to believe that people like you are the ones running extremely RIPpy builds and are mad when they end the way they're supposed to and lose your map.

If the objective of a death penalty is to force the player to reconsider their build, find their weaknesses, and fix them, losing your map on death accomplishes that goal far more successfully than EXP loss ever has and ever will.