It's 2025, and XP Penalties on Death Still Exist?

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

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QticaX#4168 wrote:

And the majority of players are endgame.

Hey. Do me a favour and go look at the achievements on PoE 1.

You claim that the majority of players are end-game. Yet, More than HALF of the achievements on the steam page for PoE 1, have 10% or less of the player-base beating them.

Wouldn't that indicate that, only 5-10% of the playerbase, is doing end-game content?



Sure doesn't seem like theres a lot of people doing end-game content. So few have actually done any of this stuff.

Even some of the super easy end-game bosses like Atziri. Which has been in the game for forever. Only has 3% of players ever beating her. And you're basically force fed those map pieces the moment you hit 50.

That shows me what? 3.1% of people who play POE on Steam have beat Sirus? and?? That isn't the main client used to play POE and Sirus is a boss most people don't even consider running. End game is mapping and everything you do outside of that is extra content. Like Sirus.

You don't even have a level 100 on POE1 what makes you think you're going to achieve that here? lol all your doing is bitching instead of actually playing.

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QticaX#4168 wrote:

That shows me what? 3.1% of people who play POE on Steam have beat Sirus? and?? That isn't the main client used to play POE and Sirus is a boss most people don't even consider running. End game is mapping and everything you do outside of that is extra content. Like Sirus.

It shows you, that on average, less than 5% of players are 'end-game' and beating 'end-game' content.

It shows you the vast majority of players that join this game. About 70-80%. Quit during, or right after finishing the campaign.

So how is this a 'majority' end-game playerbase. When that's literally all there is that's left, after everyone else quits?

Do you think having that many people leave a game, indicates that it's a good game? A game with a like, 5-10% player retention, is a good game in your eyes?

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize we were searching eachothers characters on the forum and then shaming them over it.

And yes. That's the issue. I would play more if the game was better made. Hence why I'm giving my FEEDBACK, on the FEEDBACK forums for the EARLY ACCESS game of POE 2. I have a level 91, because I hit a point where I died a few times, and quit, and never played her again. And ever since then, I never put in effort to get past like, level 87.

Because, well. The game is Frustrating past that point, and is not enjoyable to play. Almost like you can see that exact scenario play out, in the achievements. Where 80% of the playerbase is quitting without ever hitting end-game.

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

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QticaX#4168 wrote:

That shows me what? 3.1% of people who play POE on Steam have beat Sirus? and?? That isn't the main client used to play POE and Sirus is a boss most people don't even consider running. End game is mapping and everything you do outside of that is extra content. Like Sirus.

It shows you, that on average, less than 5% of players are 'end-game' and beating 'end-game' content.

It shows you the vast majority of players that join this game. About 70-80%. Quit during, or right after finishing the campaign.

So how is this a 'majority' end-game playerbase. When that's literally all there is that's left, after everyone else quits?

Do you think having that many people leave a game, indicates that it's a good game? A game with a like, 5-10% player retention, is a good game in your eyes?

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize we were searching eachothers characters on the forum and then shaming them over it.

I'm not arguing against you here but the examples in your picture are horrible examples, at least related to your statement. Once you beat the campaign, you are in the endgame. Maps are endgame, league content seperate from maps is endgame, bosses are endgame, etc. All of this stuff you've listed is pretty hyperspecific and lots of people who enjoy path of exile won't mess with any of this.

Sirus isn't the main endgame anymore and hasn't been for awhile. Even when he was, he was probably the hardest among the endgame expansions I played except for Maven.

2 of those achievements are hardcore achievements. Hardcore is by far the least popular game mode in all games of this type, PoE is definitely no exception. It's probably the hardest of all the hardcore arpgs imo.

Breachlords.. breach has been up and down in its popularity and its popular point never was killing all of the breachlords. Mainly just to get more out of each map and sell breachstones to people farming that. The amount of people farming those were unsurprisingly low given that their profit margin wasn't great for awhile.

Warbands?... no one is hunting for warbands now. I doubt anyone even remembers that league.

Overcharged... how is that even remotely a good example?

Voidstones is probably the most relevant example but you still need to be in the endgame for a good while to get all 4.

Maven - see Sirus example. Hardest mechanics to learn of all of the bosses and not necessary to beat to have played the endgame. Voidstones yes, but as I've already stated, lots of people don't get all of their voidstones. I'd venture to say that most people probably buy carries for them.

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

And then, all GGG does, is focus on providing an end-game, for like 5-10% of the playerbase, at best. While 70% or so, quit after the campaigns.

Because the endgame players spend more money. It's really that simple.

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Saf3tyhazard#3440 wrote:

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

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QticaX#4168 wrote:

That shows me what? 3.1% of people who play POE on Steam have beat Sirus? and?? That isn't the main client used to play POE and Sirus is a boss most people don't even consider running. End game is mapping and everything you do outside of that is extra content. Like Sirus.

It shows you, that on average, less than 5% of players are 'end-game' and beating 'end-game' content.

It shows you the vast majority of players that join this game. About 70-80%. Quit during, or right after finishing the campaign.

So how is this a 'majority' end-game playerbase. When that's literally all there is that's left, after everyone else quits?

Do you think having that many people leave a game, indicates that it's a good game? A game with a like, 5-10% player retention, is a good game in your eyes?

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize we were searching eachothers characters on the forum and then shaming them over it.

I'm not arguing against you here but the examples in your picture are horrible examples, at least related to your statement. Once you beat the campaign, you are in the endgame. Maps are endgame, league content seperate from maps is endgame, bosses are endgame, etc. All of this stuff you've listed is pretty hyperspecific and lots of people who enjoy path of exile won't mess with any of this.

Sirus isn't the main endgame anymore and hasn't been for awhile. Even when he was, he was probably the hardest among the endgame expansions I played except for Maven.

2 of those achievements are hardcore achievements. Hardcore is by far the least popular game mode in all games of this type, PoE is definitely no exception. It's probably the hardest of all the hardcore arpgs imo.

Breachlords.. breach has been up and down in its popularity and its popular point never was killing all of the breachlords. Mainly just to get more out of each map and sell breachstones to people farming that. The amount of people farming those were unsurprisingly low given that their profit margin wasn't great for awhile.

Warbands?... no one is hunting for warbands now. I doubt anyone even remembers that league.

Overcharged... how is that even remotely a good example?

Voidstones is probably the most relevant example but you still need to be in the endgame for a good while to get all 4.

Maven - see Sirus example. Hardest mechanics to learn of all of the bosses and not necessary to beat to have played the endgame. Voidstones yes, but as I've already stated, lots of people don't get all of their voidstones. I'd venture to say that most people probably buy carries for them.

Please do me a favor, and go look at how many people are beating the campaign bosses.

It paints a very clear picture of low player retention.

The reason this is important, is that they're arguing about the majority of players being end-game.

When the reality is. They're all that's left, after everyone else leaves. That's a big big difference.

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CaduAndrade#9284 wrote:

Another topic about this? Absolutely! I want this game to thrive, but it’s losing players because GGG is stuck in the past.

This is a great opportunity to attract players from competing games. If you insist on keeping XP penalties, make it optional or limit the loss to the XP gained in the current map. Simple and effective!

I quit both POE1 and POE2 because of this. I really want to come back to POE2.

Stardew valley?

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

And then, all GGG does, is focus on providing an end-game, for like 5-10% of the playerbase, at best. While 70% or so, quit after the campaigns.

Because the endgame players spend more money. It's really that simple.

Well, given the current model, and preying on addicts. Yes. It was intentionally designed to derive the most amount of money, out of the most addicted players.

Doesn't need to be like that to generate good money though. I'd think having more than 40,000 players in your game could theoretically, completely blow the amount of money out of the water.

We will see if PoE 2 is made for 3 million casual players, or 40,000 whales. Time will tell.

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

D2 did not have an ENDGAME, and yet, after finishing the campaign on all difficulties, ARPG players still played the same maps over and over again for 25 freaking years. GGG knows some players like to do that and trade the results of their grinds, so they had the decency of designing on the top of their GAME an infinite and replayable ENDGAME with the atlas, maps, and uniques bosses, just to satisfy the need for moar. And it's a punitive time sink, as expected.

Can you stop believing everyone starting PoE2 should reach the end of the ENDGAME please ? I'd always encourage them to try to finish the GAME, that's for sure, if they want, if they can, but stopping after that is really OK too. I wouldn't advise anyone to try to finish the ENDGAME, because it's not made for that.

Different times, different players, different games and most notably different outcomes between player versus game interactions and what we get out of it ( and every individual is different also ).

I played D2 from it's release, I played Diablo, I played rpgs in Atari, text-input rpgs in monochrome crts and crawled through MUD ( realization: damn I'm getting old, haha ).

And you are correct it was played over and over again because there was nothing else and it was amazing. But please don't use D2 as an excuse, that's a long gone dynasty from a different era and a very specific group of people are still on it ( maybe the same group that loves the current state of PoE 2 also, that's fine, you can't cross-reference them though, it's wrong in my opinion ).

When you yourself is calling something the "endgame" by definition it is the end of the game and is still part of the "game". The acts alone are just part of the game ( usually the introduction as they are here as well ), they need the "endgame" to be complete and have a purpose. The game is everything including all of the grind at the end.

To put simply, when you end the Acts you get more quests leading into Atlas ( what you call endgame ), for as long as you still have those quests active the game hasn't finished and that's by GGGs decision and design, you're even somewhat dismissing of what they've built at this point without realizing it.

Some people for x,y,z reasons will not be able to reach that point and finish the quests, that is fine. If not at all, definitely some will have a harder time and that's ok, there's thousands of games out there that are literally "hard" and it takes a lot of so called "mastery" to complete them, but they don't come with the same kind of frustration because they pose an actual literal difficulty, they're not just using "annoying setbacks".

PoE 2 is nowhere near difficult or not approachable or anything of that sort, let's be real please.

If you learn the bosses as with every other game, it's a pretty standard game to follow, nothing extraordinary going on ( and this isn't devaluing the game in any way, it's still a good looking and a well playing game for an EA, far better than some other EAs or full releases for sure ).

You guys are so attached to the xp loss and in general defending a game you love ( which is fine ) that instead of arguing with concrete "whys" on your end as well, usually you're just saying "no you're wrong" coming up with various explanations that have little to no grounds and they are usually "just because" and out of thin air ( and I'm not saying that everyone is doing that, just to be clear ).

And I'm not saying that any side has any "concrete" whys, but the "no xp loss" side doesn't need whys, they are here to request and by default any kind of "why" is valid and needs to be heard, you on the other hand the "keep xp loss" that are "defending" have to make crystal clear reasons of why you like the current standard, which are not "it's for learning" nor the foolish "git guds" unfortunately, especially the latter.

The only reasonable explanation that I've seen from a few that I completely understand is "GGG wants it this way, it has been discussed in the past, I don't think it's going anywhere" or somewhere along those lines, so the conversation ( for me ) ends there, they're the creators, perfect. Everything else is just gibberish, you still have to allow people to ask GGG for a different angle especially on a feedback forum. They will either win or lose the fight, but it's up to GGG.

P.S.

I don't mind the xp loss, I was and am a bit on the fence about it, as I'd also prefer a bit of leniency and adjustments, but if it stays as is it's fine with me.

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Orion_3T#9801 wrote:

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Talamor1#0630 wrote:

xp penalty is the reason why this game remains competitive for so long and ensures player retention for several weeks.

I don't want to discuss the same point in multiple threads but you posted the same thing in the other thread so I will challenge it here also.

Your claim taken literally, that this XP loss is the reason POE1 was successful is prima facie ridiculous. A more reasonable claim that it is one of the reasons is a more reasonable but still highly dubious claim.

Honest question, if it were taken out and the XP curve changed to make the last 10 levels take longer, would you be so upset that you would stop playing?

There is so much disregard for how strongly negative people feel about this, the counter being "well it's actually a good feature here's why...".

Honestly, if the last 10 levels were even harder to reach, it wouldn't make me quit the game.

I'd simply give up on the idea of reaching level 100 and set level 95 as my final goal, reworking my skill tree with 5 points less for the endgame.

I'll give you that, I was a bit hasty yesterday in what I wrote (because I did it from work), and the experience penalty isn't the only thing, but it's one of several things that keep players in the game for longer, in my opinion. Which is why in my opinion it's almost unthinkable that GGG would remove it.

My thoughts from another thread ,

Dying involves ;

- lost waystone
- lost content
- lost currency
- lost exp
- lost time investment


Dying gains ;

- potential knowledge of why you failed
- potential to improve character

I strongly feel they have to balance the death penalties as a whole.

No need to argue with me, just my two cents