Floored by the power spike of TRADING. This will ruin the game.

"

But there must be some middle ground, because the way it currently is, crafting is almost completely useless and way too expensive.

Every ARPG has struggled with this and non has found a solution. It always comes down to trade, or don't trade (SSF) but if you allow trade then trade will be the optimal strategy.

You can only try to limit trade volumes by introducing friction (need to use external website, some sort of tax) but by necessity this also introduces player frustration.

"

XeonPOE#7768 wrote:

Every ARPG has struggled with this and non has found a solution. It always comes down to trade, or don't trade (SSF) but if you allow trade then trade will be the optimal strategy.

You can only try to limit trade volumes by introducing friction (need to use external website, some sort of tax) but by necessity this also introduces player frustration.

Last Epoch found a really good solution.

"

Last Epoch found a really good solution.

Last Epoch has Trade or SSF, like POE. Only real difference is you can still play in the same instance, plus there is some sort of tax.

But their in game auction house is terrible.

"

crazyfingers619#3901 wrote:

Why was excaliber special?

Did King Arther buy it on the auction house?

1) because the sword rolled good stats and a king owned it.

2) no. King Arthur had magic find.
if he purchased it from an electrician for a weird head coin it would still be Excalibur and he would still be King Arthur.

"

crazyfingers619#3901 wrote:

The grind and finding the loot through long dry spells IS THE GAMEPLAY.

so is finding a decent piece, deciding if its good for your build, using it or selling it, doing that a number of times and buying something really special.

if thats not your style then right on, i commend the grind.
you can play SSF or use some self control.

"

crazyfingers619#3901 wrote:

If you can just drop a quarter into a machine to get power, the whole system collapses.

i would recommend calling an electrician instead of trying to fix your breaker with a quarter.
ha. but srsly:

if this was my stock portfolio i wouldnt describe it as collapsing.

"

XeonPOE#7768 wrote:

"

Last Epoch found a really good solution.

Last Epoch has Trade or SSF, like POE. Only real difference is you can still play in the same instance, plus there is some sort of tax.

But their in game auction house is terrible.

It's not SSF if you can group...

Last Epoch has trade vs self found. The self found option does not stop you from playing with other people. It also adds boosts to drop rates and mechanics for target farming. It is not like SSF in any way.

"

Cosmic711#3173 wrote:

Trading is a massive headache to balance in any ARPG, people just love to be contrarians. If you don't think trading is one of the most difficult things to get right, then I would like to point to Diablo 3 and Last Epoch. Honestly the only reason I and many others even bought either of these games are because of the way trading is handled.

There is basically no middleground between SSF and trade league. It's either you acquire all your gear alone, or you put yourself in a situation where you don't ever have to craft anything (or even pick up equips for that matter). You can set limitations on what you allow yourself to trade and when, but it's not nearly as satisfying as simply playing SSF.

One of the main reasons for the trading problem is how premium tabs work. When you identify items (which is now easier than ever), you simply dump them into a tab without even looking at them. Then you reduce the price of the tab until you get a whisper. If you don't ever get a whisper, once the item price has been reduced enough, you simply vendor it.

The problem with this system is that you don't actually have to look at and price each item, so there is no time cost for the seller. If the seller actually had to price each item, they would also have to charge a lot more for their items because sitting around pricing items means you're not clearing maps.

The only way we're going to get a trade system where overpowered items aren't an exalt each is with an instant buy-out, like an auction house. And GGG is very much against that and very vocal about it. And besides, even if they did that, people would probably just start using bots to automatically price their items for them.

People will always find a way to make trade the most efficient possible, and with efficiency comes cheap power. I really like the way Last Epoch handles trading and I hope GGG will finally come up with their own solution in the future because it's been a huge topic for a very long time now.

Great post.

"

C4Guy#0918 wrote:

"

crazyfingers619#3901 wrote:

If crafting is deterministic, it will detract from the thrill of finding items.

But there must be some middle ground, because the way it currently is, crafting is almost completely useless and way too expensive. If mods on items were more limited in terms of tier and type and exalts and regals would actually be more abundant, this could actually work, but that isn't the case.
Almost all exalts I've used either gave me a crappy, low-tier useful mod or a completely useless one.

Sorry to say "diablo 2" again, but diablo 2 had a GREAT middle ground with their charms and their slot system.

Some slotable items were VERY rare, and very powerful.

For POE 2, it could really be that simple. Maybe you can reliably find a gem that gives 15 lightning resist when socketed into some armor. But finding a gem that gives 15 lightning resist and 10% crit rate could be really rare. Make it NO DROP.

Done. That simple.

I don't know where all this chatter that we NEED trade for the game to be fun. The vast majority of games are fun without trading with other people.

"

crazyfingers619#3901 wrote:

Great post.

so ssf does exist and im assuming you have at least some self control, yea?

you arent forced to trade.
if you dont want to, dont.

trade existing has no tangible effect on you in this game.
trade not existing has tangible effect on the massive majority of the playerbase (non-ssf)

"

crazyfingers619#3901 wrote:

I want POE 2 to be the next Diablo 2.



Take any RPG, add a button where you give the player an overpowered item that invalidates all the in game content and makes all the loot they find themselves worthless, and in a week no one will be playing the game any more.

People are playing POE 2 now because the Trade mechanics haven't becoming common knowledge yet.

It won't stay this way forever.

hi :) you must be the new guy. dont take that as an insult, its not meant as one, welcome to the best arpg franchise ever made.


ive played poe1 for 20,000 hours over 12 years, and this means im gonna know some things you dont know on the subject. try and keep an open mind to what im gonna say. im 43, i played D1 from launch, D2, 3, all the arpgs.



the trade mechanics are the same as poe1, the trade mechanics are open knowledge and have been put to the test rigorously. they didnt lead to people not playing the game after a week, they led to the most successful long term arpg ever made.

"

crazyfingers619#3901 wrote:

This game will never be the next diablo 2 if they don't recapture the amazement of grinding for our own loot and power, and not in the bowels of the no trade servers. It has to be core to the balance of the game.

they already did. path of exile 1 is already miles better than diablo 2, trust me on that. you can play it self found just fine and you can play poe2 self found just fine too.

"

I spent an hour on the trade server and I totally broke the game.

trust me, you didnt, you probably made a mildly effective character whos gear is rubbish compared to lots of gear ive found or crafted myself in poe1. you have probably upgraded your gear beyond what ur likely to find in the next 5 hours of playing, and if that is what u mean by broke the game then sure.

if you dont want that then dont trade. i traded a ton in poe1, im not trading at all in poe2 and dont plan on ever trading because i want the joy of finding/crafting all my own items which will be entirely possible just like it is in poe1.







what you have to understand is that the trade economy at the heart of poe1 didnt kill it, it is what made the game such a success. youre doing what exactly? completing some mid tier maps without dying because u managed to cap your res and get decent damage?

i dont think you understand the depths of content this game is going to have, how exceptionally rare the best possible items are and how far from owning them 99% of players will be.

in poe1 theres entire ecosystems. people dont just grind currency and buy items in a linear fashion. people grind for items to sell on the market, people work out niches. some guys are gonna run a specific few bosses early in a league for the unique items that only drop from them. they are going to learn to level so fast and make enough currency early to buy lots of the keys for those bosses. they know the builds and items they need, they are gonna farm the bosses and then put the loot in their guild stash where another 10 people in their guild have other jobs. some are going to be shop keepers who sell these items, others are buyers going out and buying the keys for the bosses or farming them, theres going to be profit sharing. theres going to be an entire network of people working together and they love it, it gives them purpose, they do this every league, there will be competing teams.


someone else will say im gonna be the jewel guy. i understand the build metas, what jewels they use, i understand the crafting systems and mod pools to an expert level. i know the best way to craft all the meta jewels people use and im that guy, i go in on a league i amass jewel bases and begin crafting, i do the easy cheap ones first to build my bank. then i move into making the high end ones when the market evolves, i barely even play the game im just crafting jewels, buying bases, buying materials, selling the jewels. maybe i know people who play a lot of the content where the crafting materials come from, we have a relationship, they mass farm it and sell me the stuff theyre looting.


dude you could write a book on trading in poe1, the endless niches, the game knowledge, the way the markets shift over time during a 3 month league cycle.



trust me most people who trade still cant do the hardest content in poe1. you dont appreciate the depth of the games content, item system or trade economy, and it will be the same in poe2.




or you can do what im doing, play self found. is that your jam? sure, its my jam too m8, thats how we wanna play so were gonna do our thing and the trade people are going to do theirs. and the beautiful thing is it all works, we know it works because it worked for 12 years in poe1. trust me i get what you are saying, but dont worry about it, it all works just fine and the game scales to provide everyone with something to strive for and enjoy accomplishing, from the guy just trying to work out how to make a functioning build to the guy trying to grind his way to make his favourite build in softcore trade to the guy streaming hardcore ssf killing the biggest bosses for all the glory to the guy whos a billionaire crafting god with 10,000 exalts and 20 mirrors in his stash. they all have a goal and theyre enjoying achieving it.

"

JODYHiGHR0LLER#6171 wrote:

"

crazyfingers619#3901 wrote:

Great post.

so ssf does exist and im assuming you have at least some self control, yea?

you arent forced to trade.
if you dont want to, dont.

trade existing has no tangible effect on you in this game.
trade not existing has tangible effect on the massive majority of the playerbase (non-ssf)

The problem with that is that trading affects balance. The game is designed with trade in mind.