Poe 2 - Analysis. Result of Professional deformation and degradation of game design?

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PatrickFf#1965 wrote:

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theslavagame#6814 wrote:

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NicknamesOfGod#1810 wrote:

Mark Roberts said a while ago that he doesn't read long forum posts. As a writer of long forum posts, I took that personally at the time. I don't anymore. I get it now.

OP, please condense your feedback into a 5x5 bingo card.

Am I right in understanding that you want a three-line summary of a book on game design? Complex problems require complex criticism, and I took this seriously. I'm always amazed that people look for simple answers to complex questions. I'm afraid that the problems of this game are quite complex and they lie deep

The problem isn't complex, GGG want to make a game they like, but the vast majority of gamers won't. Its the reason why games companies have lost over a billion on bad game choices in the last year.

They are making a game for them and not the customer.

Which is your opinion only. Diablo 4 went from slower and deliberate to fasta and more powa and doesn't seem to thrive for that,[/quote]

They made a 150 million from microtransactions alone... so someone must be playing it.

I don't understand the reflexive negativity towards dodge rolls as if it's some inherently badwrongunfun mechanic.

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ExplosiveAmnesia#2980 wrote:

Wrong Thread

Yes, I do it so often, don't I?

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theslavagame#6814 wrote:

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ExplosiveAmnesia#2980 wrote:

Wrong Thread

Yes, I do it so often, don't I?

I was saying I posted in the wrong thread and I can't figure out how to delete my posts so I just edited it lmao T_T

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ExplosiveAmnesia#2980 wrote:

I don't understand the reflexive negativity towards dodge rolls as if it's some inherently badwrongunfun mechanic.

It's good where it's appropriate. The problem is the lack of an alternative. If a game FORCES you to do something without an alternative, then it's usually not a very good game design. This is not an absolute rule from the Bible, but it is accepted by developers as a good form. In an action-rpg, you have to have different pathways, and Poe 1 was really good at that. In Poe2, at least for the moment, most of the content devalues your characteristics, forcing you to just roll and roll and roll

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just_dont#6539 wrote:

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Statement 1 - Mechanics vs. Stats

Any ARPG game (this one included) is mostly stats.
The only difference here is that PoE1 is 99% stats and PoE2 is 90% stats.

All the other comparisons you're making in this paragraph are nonsensical. Games of other genres have fundamentally different possible spreads of mechanics vs stats.

You're trying to push an argument that PoE2 went towards "mechanics" games a lot, while in reality it barely moved; and that's very obvious - an ARPG game simply cannot move too much towards "mechanics" while still remaining ARPG.

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Statement 2 - Depth of building, encouragement of creativity

You have written a whole paragraph talking about literally half-finished game. Let me just disregard it whatsoever.

Talking about builds right now is simply premature and pointless. We can return to this topic when the game gets at least about 90% of its content and not just 50% like right now.

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Statement 3 - Roll in Action Rpg

Here you're simply reiterating that a slight shift towards "mechanics" is bad.
Whereas it's a welcome extension that allows keeping the difficulty level high enough (it provides a "mechanics" failsafe that's always available independently of your build).

See, you have written quite a lot of words, but (not surprising, really) didn't made much good arguments.

Yeah i was gonna say the same thing. all his post could be summed up in 3 to 4 sentences.

Roll bad. Builds are early (access). Poe 2 is not for Poe 1 player base (your pov).

As a non game designer, you're welcome.

P.S: none of the stuff in your post comes even close to the real mission statement or goals of PoE 2 ( slowing down the game, making every decision count, electing to give the player gear freedom over gem links with the caveat of a less powerful passive tree ). All of these design decisions are intentional, and most of them are good for the long term future of the game.

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Garett#1542 wrote:

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just_dont#6539 wrote:

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Statement 1 - Mechanics vs. Stats

Any ARPG game (this one included) is mostly stats.
The only difference here is that PoE1 is 99% stats and PoE2 is 90% stats.

All the other comparisons you're making in this paragraph are nonsensical. Games of other genres have fundamentally different possible spreads of mechanics vs stats.

You're trying to push an argument that PoE2 went towards "mechanics" games a lot, while in reality it barely moved; and that's very obvious - an ARPG game simply cannot move too much towards "mechanics" while still remaining ARPG.

"

Statement 2 - Depth of building, encouragement of creativity

You have written a whole paragraph talking about literally half-finished game. Let me just disregard it whatsoever.

Talking about builds right now is simply premature and pointless. We can return to this topic when the game gets at least about 90% of its content and not just 50% like right now.

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Statement 3 - Roll in Action Rpg

Here you're simply reiterating that a slight shift towards "mechanics" is bad.
Whereas it's a welcome extension that allows keeping the difficulty level high enough (it provides a "mechanics" failsafe that's always available independently of your build).

See, you have written quite a lot of words, but (not surprising, really) didn't made much good arguments.

Yeah i was gonna say the same thing. all his post could be summed up in 3 to 4 sentences.

Roll bad. Builds are early (access). Poe 2 is not for Poe 1 player base (your pov).

As a non game designer, you're welcome.

P.S: none of the stuff in your post comes even close to the real mission statement or goals of PoE 2 ( slowing down the game, making every decision count, electing to give the player gear freedom over gem links with the caveat of a less powerful passive tree ). All of these design decisions are intentional, and most of them are good for the long term future of the game.

They are useful, but not in the form and context in which they are now, because now equipment is much less important than rolling, especially in boss battles. I perfectly understand what the developers want to do and why - I wrote it in the post. The fact is that I do not agree with their vision and I have the right to do so. I explained why. This is my feedback. As you can see, some people agree with me and some don't, because the community is split right now

By the way, I am a big fan of all parts of Dark Souls (even the Dark Souls 2 xd) and have nothing against gameplay in which your mechanical skill makes sense. In such games, people like Ben could really show their superiority. I just don't like it when the balance shifts 95% towards one side. Right now, the monsters are just too strong, and everyone who has reached above t8 is talking about it.

As a game designer myself (a number guessing game on my calculator in the nineties, and a take away game, like the shuriken takeaway game in turtles in time, also on a graphing calculator) I also enjoy the smell of my own farts. They are delicious. Everyone should smell my farts with me.

Now for some wholesale dismissal of this game based on logical fallacies:

First, Genre defines game. If your game is an ARPG, it can never contain anything new to the ARPG genre, or it will no longer be an ARPG. This is verboten, as I and every game designer knows we get a secret manual, called the CODEX OF GENRE, which is sacrosanct. Desiring your players to interact with the game and overcome challenges, that is fine. But they need to be done in the same way it's always been done, which is static affects on mobs and a fairly static loadout, which even though it was initially done that way due to technical limitations, innovating on that system would make this game a new genre, which we game designers have not received any edits to the codex.

I couldn't be bothered to read the rest of this guy's effortpost. Credentialism disgusts me in general but he doesn't even give any support for it. He just says "I am a game designer" like some mystic prophet of old. I bet his dad doesn't even work for Nintendo.

PoE2 does seem way less complex with its gems/supports so on to keep it short the build diversity is dead i feel like each class has a few archtypes that the game hyper forces me towards and no freedom like i had in PoE1