Suggested fix for too many runs required to obtain Labyrinth enchantments

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Hosshiun wrote:

Can't we just get an item drop that rolls a random enchant? Ichors and embers exist, it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Incubator.

The bonus you get from enchantments are so inconsequential that I don't understand why it has to be so heavily RNG gated to get. Please tell me how skeletons getting +40% increased damage is going to make a build so OP that it needs to be buried under an ever-growing pile of other enchantments.

And make no mistake, the pile of enchantments is ever-growing. With each new league, GGG adds more skill gems and thus multiple enchantment per gem must be added to the divine font. The current system we have now, with the Gift to the Goddess being the only band-aid fix, isn't a feasible solution in the long-term.

What we need is to rework the divine font for helmet enchantment options to only present enchantments based on active skills you have used often. Yes, used often, so as to prevent you from exploiting the system. If you use several auras, a golem, a defense, etc alongside your main DPS skill, the font can only roll those enchantments. And with this system, this prevents the players from doing something as simple as unequipping all of their gems except their main DPS to force it to appear in the font.

40% increased damage is inconsequential, yes, but "shoots an additional projectile" or "chains an additional time" or a reservation bonus are useful.

I would rather have lab running builds (and lab runners, next to boss killers, mappers, delvers, heisters) rather than cull build diversity (because thats what some of you here are asking for) - having whatever you want from just one lab will kill this whole branch.

With very few exceptions, the helmet enchantment shouldn't make or break any build. It is merely the icing on the cake (or "head" lol). As such, it follows the same or similar odds/cost/time as the top end min/maxing does.

If you are creating a build that is actually physically reliant on a helmet enchant to function correctly (reservations/cd/etc.)...you are kind of planning your build wrong. Just like you wouldn't plan a build to only function while wearing Mageblood...without having the mageblood.

At some stage of the character development, the game HAS TO make things difficult to achieve: whether that is through time commitment, odds, learning boss encounters, or whatever. It really shouldn't be a linear progression from nothing to min/maxed: it should be exponential with the spike happening in the later half of the process. Lab Enchantments fall into this later half of the process.

In my opinion, most complaints in this game relate to the character building process. These are my rough thoughts on the character building progression.

1) Create a build that does not have any mandatory uniques or heavily rng-gated items. Find a list of mods that you can always get, and gear up your character using all rare items that hit 3 or more of these mods on every piece. The game provides you with plenty of essences from naturally playing to get you geared up to deal with white and yellow maps. NO CLUSTER JEWELS YET (time/difficulty/cost: essentially none).

2) Farm for those desired uniques. Improve and adjust your build around a unique item that has a strong effect. These can be build-enabling uniques. You need to HAVE THE UNIQUE FIRST before you jump to this step. This is the primary source of frustration for so many people. They skip step 1...maybe even now you start to look for fractured bases to get even better rares. I would also put cluster jewels (basic) at this level too. (time/difficulty/cost: minimal to moderate depending on luck and trade)

3) Tweak your build with high-end upgrades. THIS is where helmet enchants fall, chase uniques like Omniscience/HH/Mageblood, Implicits, multi-influenced mods, etc. Corruptions. Perfect clusters (time/difficulty/cost: high to extreme)


The above is just the big steps, there are even smaller bumps that you can throw in there: essence crafting, vendor recipe weapons, 21/20 gems, awakened gems. But too often people are following a guide or trying to craft a build immediately looking to jump to step 3, and hitting wall after wall after wall that require insane grind and currency. The frustrations are mostly caused by unrealistic expectations, in my opinion of course.

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Nomancs wrote:

I would rather have lab running builds (and lab runners, next to boss killers, mappers, delvers, heisters) rather than cull build diversity (because thats what some of you here are asking for) - having whatever you want from just one lab will kill this whole branch.

Diversity is good, yet there are 3 things preventing lab to be seen as full-scale league content (imo at least): no cheap access to lvl 83 version, "hardcore" nature with threats heavy biased towards phys dot, and no atlas tree support. No generic loot there, not even basic currency/fragments. Instead you'd have to gain reputation on tft and gather a bunch of orders before doing runs.

So lab service necessity is same as 5-way necessity: artificial, due to bad design. When people pay for avoiding running content, it should be a clear signal for developers to redesign that content, but not for GGG apparently :) Ever-growing enchantment pool vs same old rules. It is just dull compared to newer content.

No, you dont need tft to profit from lab running, and it is unique branch compared to regular map or boss runners. Would be just bad choice to get rid of part of the game just for pure power creep desire.
Edit: people also buy resonators and fossils, means they avoid delve - is it a reason to think delve is a bad content and should be removed?

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Nomancs wrote:

No, you dont need tft to profit from lab running, and it is unique branch compared to regular map or boss runners. Would be just bad choice to get rid of part of the game just for pure power creep desire.
Edit: people also buy resonators and fossils, means they avoid delve - is it a reason to think delve is a bad content and should be removed?

Any basic currency farming has stable linear progression of time vs rewards. If you need specific type of currency, you can always efficiently farm it yourself without having to invest much. Buying them would just be a minor time save.

Lab on the other hand, is similar to farming apothecary cards. Nailing specific enchant running only "basic" lvl 75 lab is next to impossible, and time spent is completely wasted from farming or leveling perspective too. On top of that you are always threatened by "hardcore" failing on traps and losing even more time.

There is a reason enchant service costs more than a bunch of resonators. If you wish to compare 2 different things, weigh a few thousand resonators then, which is very specific demand suited for a few elite crafters who can actually burn thousands. While enchants are in much greater demand, and in shorter supply generated by few elite runners. This is why lab needs redesign, not delve. Target of such redesign should be situation where average player would be capable of getting his personal enchant within reasonable amount of time.

Here is a wild and crazy thought ...

If you finish uber lab you can choose your enchantment as a reward.

Mind blown. I get that the game needs chase items but having to run the lab 100+ times is just absurd even for power gamers.

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Echothesis wrote:

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Nomancs wrote:

No, you dont need tft to profit from lab running, and it is unique branch compared to regular map or boss runners. Would be just bad choice to get rid of part of the game just for pure power creep desire.
Edit: people also buy resonators and fossils, means they avoid delve - is it a reason to think delve is a bad content and should be removed?

Any basic currency farming has stable linear progression of time vs rewards. If you need specific type of currency, you can always efficiently farm it yourself without having to invest much. Buying them would just be a minor time save.

Lab on the other hand, is similar to farming apothecary cards. Nailing specific enchant running only "basic" lvl 75 lab is next to impossible, and time spent is completely wasted from farming or leveling perspective too. On top of that you are always threatened by "hardcore" failing on traps and losing even more time.

There is a reason enchant service costs more than a bunch of resonators. If you wish to compare 2 different things, weigh a few thousand resonators then, which is very specific demand suited for a few elite crafters who can actually burn thousands. While enchants are in much greater demand, and in shorter supply generated by few elite runners. This is why lab needs redesign, not delve. Target of such redesign should be situation where average player would be capable of getting his personal enchant within reasonable amount of time.

If you're farming specific loot, like hunting aul for his stuff (and following your logic, doing it only on very shallow delve), you also don't get him often, so ye, delete delve? Problem is, you want specific enchant on your legacy helmet or whatever bis you got there - and that should be either time consuming, or difficult, otherwise it will not feel rewarding, it will be just a "participation trophy". Lab can be a great source of income (without tft), did it few leagues ago, had small collection of unique helmets, and most of the time I had something worth 1-2 divines.

Writing about failing "hardcore" traps is huge stretch - there is 0 risk of dying on traps. You would have to intentionally stand in them for multiple seconds to die. It is like saying delve is hard because if you stand in darkness for 20 seconds you will probably die.

On top of that, we get plenty of enchanted helmets from legion, cards and plenty other mechanics. Problem is, you don't want just enchanted helmet, you want BIS enchanted helmet. Thats just greed.