Crucible is peak PoE and it's not even close.

My perspective?

PRO: Amazing power, insane power, most power spike ever and good build enabler.

CON: Honestly if GGG would have just given % liklyhood on combining all would have been fine. But it was a complete crapshoot with almost no explanation except a vague "well if the trees don't overlap there is more chance for them to remain".

I know people said it wasn't a fun mechanic but IMO that was because of what I said above about the lack of information about the combining. If we have learned anything about POE it is that people don't mind grinding or gambling if they have a decent roadmap to success.

What would I have done if I worked for GGG and on the Crucible mechanic? Show the % likelihood for every node before you press combine. There you go. One quick and small addition IMO would have made all the difference.

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Sounds pretty convoluted.

Everything about how POE works is already convoluted. If the game was straight forward we would not need all the 3rd party programs and websites to make sense of things.

I have an almost perfect crucible tree on my wand and all I get from it is some dps and some block chance. Just because the trees are exceptionally good for attribute stackers, ele bow builds and sst, it doesn't mean that it's that good for all builds. I could play the same build next league and pretty much nothing would change.

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Phrazz wrote:

Isn't this the thing with all progression systems, though? Harvest. Cluster jewels. Expansions to the passive tree. Hell, even Ascendancy Classes.

Yes but whether its well received or not depends on how comfortable it is to jump through those hoops.

Cluster jewels? Not mandatory, provide interesting loot opportunities, can be specialised in for SSF, can be crafted, can use garbage ones or mid tiers while crafting good ones, nice QoL to socket and remove etc.

I personally hate cluster jewels but from a design perspective they are fine, its creep but its creep in every direction which is fun for players to access and interact with.

Crucible has fucking nothing, it would just be a groan worthy task every league like doing the lab trials where you sigh and get it over with, or just don't bother at all on HC as its such a laborious task of extreme tedium to begin with.

The gameplay loop is bad for crucible, no two ways about it. Encouraging anybody to go through a loop that's bad just breeds resentment, its OK for lab trials we just sigh and put up with it probably takes less than 10 minutes on one character.

Power gamers got a significant power creep, ie the group that need it the least, normies got nothing to an extremely minor or neutral buff depending on how willing they were to interact with it. This is another reason its not actually that much power creep especially compared to something like Harvest or Delirium even Sanctum.

Edit: honestly now that i'm thinking about it the only thing peak about Crucible is the fact a group of players will think any league is peak :p, that truly is peak PoE - no matter how toxic something is there will be a liquid corrosion man bathing in a fountain of it telling us how its great.

I mean i'm that guy too sometimes, Its probably a good thing tbh.

One more important point about cluster jewels is also that you don't have to use them. They provide an alternative to something that's already there (passive tree) not an augmentation. Most builds can work just fine without them, they provide interesting options and are often worth using especially with good ones but the focus with them is expanding the range of options not just making the numbers for existing options bigger. It's what i would consider good powercreep, crucible isn't

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Baharoth15 wrote:

One more important point about cluster jewels is also that you don't have to use them. They provide an alternative to something that's already there (passive tree) not an augmentation. Most builds can work just fine without them, they provide interesting options and are often worth using especially with good ones but the focus with them is expanding the range of options not just making the numbers for existing options bigger. It's what i would consider good powercreep, crucible isn't

Doesn't this solely depend on how they would implement Crucible into the core game, though? What makes the Crucible trees more mandatory than cluster jewels? And before you answer that, remember the power of cluster jewels when they were introduced. As far as I remember, cluster jewels were the catalyst for some of the most powerful builds this game has ever seen.

I get your point(s), though (I think): The Crucible trees are just a new hoop to jump, and so powerful that you feel like you have to jump. What I don't get, is how it's worse (depending on the implementation) than other hoops, and why it's more mandatory. Because we all know it would be watered down like every other mechanic going core. Like Cluster Jewels; they were raw power in Delirium (read: mentally mandatory), now they are more of a choice.

Cluster jewels have opportunity cost. Spending your points on clusters means you can't spend those points on the regular tree. What's more, you have a fixed cost of 3 points just to access them. And they aren't always worth that cost and even in situations where they can be worth it you can still do relatively well without them, the gap won't be that large. Their main usecase is for builds that look for a very specific stat they want to stack which they can't find on the tree in the needed amount. Like Aurastackers in Delirium for example.

Crucible trees are just added stats on weapons. There is no opportunity cost here except from having to jump through the hoop to get it. Your weapon will pretty much always be better by slapping a crucible tree on it compared to not doing it. They could just scrap crucible and slap extra flat/increased damage/attackspeed/crit on weapon bases/skill gems and get the same result.

It's the opportunity cost that makes cluster jewels a choice and the absence of that makes crucible mandatory.

Maybe there are ways to implement crucible in a way that actually makes it into a choice but it would be so far off from what we have now it would hardly even be the same mechanic. They could for example take the crucible nodes that assign keystones and the ones that alter skill behaviour and add them as prefix/suffixes on weapons or make it so that every crucible notable comes at the cost of reducing the number of affixes your item can have. That way crucible wouldn't be mandatory and way more interesting than it is right now.

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MrWonderful99 wrote:

My perspective?

PRO: Amazing power, insane power, most power spike ever and good build enabler.

CON: Honestly if GGG would have just given % liklyhood on combining all would have been fine. But it was a complete crapshoot with almost no explanation except a vague "well if the trees don't overlap there is more chance for them to remain".

I know people said it wasn't a fun mechanic but IMO that was because of what I said above about the lack of information about the combining. If we have learned anything about POE it is that people don't mind grinding or gambling if they have a decent roadmap to success.

What would I have done if I worked for GGG and on the Crucible mechanic? Show the % likelihood for every node before you press combine. There you go. One quick and small addition IMO would have made all the difference.

Providing info like that is against GGG's principles. They don't do that. Not saying it would be bad. There are many reasons people don't like Crucible - monsrers are insane, loot is non-existent, people are unwilling to craft, you need to channel mechanic and in the end gameplay loop is too simple.

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auspexa wrote:

I have an almost perfect crucible tree on my wand and all I get from it is some dps and some block chance. Just because the trees are exceptionally good for attribute stackers, ele bow builds and sst, it doesn't mean that it's that good for all builds. I could play the same build next league and pretty much nothing would change.

You are playing very niche build and still gain 16% more damage from one hander and massive defensive bonuses you choose to not take advantage of. That's massive, you just didn't realised it until now. Btw builds who gain significantly more damage don't get such defensive bonuses.

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MrWonderful99 wrote:

...

But Crucible does make number of existing options bigger. There are many builds it enables or makes significantly better - Flameblast, Rolling Magma, SST, Maw of Mischief / Other golem explode builds, etc. etc.

Why do you insist Crucible should compete with something? You mean in case it goes in core game?

I don't really want Crucible to go core, because it will be yet another thing to add into your build and worry about. I want new set of bonkers buffs from League mechanic.

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MrWonderful99 wrote:

My perspective?

PRO: Amazing power, insane power, most power spike ever and good build enabler.

CON: Honestly if GGG would have just given % liklyhood on combining all would have been fine. But it was a complete crapshoot with almost no explanation except a vague "well if the trees don't overlap there is more chance for them to remain".

I know people said it wasn't a fun mechanic but IMO that was because of what I said above about the lack of information about the combining. If we have learned anything about POE it is that people don't mind grinding or gambling if they have a decent roadmap to success.

What would I have done if I worked for GGG and on the Crucible mechanic? Show the % likelihood for every node before you press combine. There you go. One quick and small addition IMO would have made all the difference.

Providing info like that is against GGG's principles. They don't do that. Not saying it would be bad. There are many reasons people don't like Crucible - monsrers are insane, loot is non-existent, people are unwilling to craft, you need to channel mechanic and in the end gameplay loop is too simple.

"

auspexa wrote:

I have an almost perfect crucible tree on my wand and all I get from it is some dps and some block chance. Just because the trees are exceptionally good for attribute stackers, ele bow builds and sst, it doesn't mean that it's that good for all builds. I could play the same build next league and pretty much nothing would change.

You are playing very niche build and still gain 16% more damage from one hander and massive defensive bonuses you choose to not take advantage of. That's massive, you just didn't processed it. Btw builds that gain significantly more damage like BV don't get such (or any) defensive bonuses.

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SunL4D2 wrote:

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auspexa wrote:

I have an almost perfect crucible tree on my wand and all I get from it is some dps and some block chance. Just because the trees are exceptionally good for attribute stackers, ele bow builds and sst, it doesn't mean that it's that good for all builds. I could play the same build next league and pretty much nothing would change.

You are playing very niche build and still gain 16% more damage from one hander and massive defensive bonuses you choose to not take advantage of. That's massive, you just didn't processed it. Btw builds that gain significantly more damage like BV don't get such (or any) defensive bonuses.

what am I not taking advantage of? it's one of the best trees I could possibly have for skeleton dark pact

Nobody knows yet, what "Crucible going core" means. Surely, the weapon trees are testing for POE2, but it is likely the rest is just fluff to make seem like a new league. They reworked scourge to make a setting for getting and advancing the trees. They threw a bunch of node possibilities out there to see what folks preferred and waited to see how it all worked.

Even if weapon trees don't show up at the launch of POE2, they certainly could be part of one of the new leagues that must follow in the ensuing months. In theory, 3-4 months after release, GGG will need to have a new temp league ready to go. Players tend to see things in a short time frame: the current league and the next league. GGG is working on a much longer time frame and planning at least 3-4 leagues in the future as they polish up 4.0.