"
"
Why isn't PoE, if it's such the superior game, doing better in terms of the market?
You have been explained this a million times, yet you keep ignoring it. I'll try once more: PoE will always stay pretty niche, because it's not as "easy digestible" as other games. It requires more time investment, and isn't really speaking to the "instant gratification crowd" because of depth, complexity and grindy nature. And for people appreciating those factors, PoE is a VERY good game.
I love this logic you keep using. As long a someone, anyone, likes the game, then it means its "Very Good". I mean how do you attempt to discuss something when the opposing viewpoint is "It's true because I say so"? I love it because it's so dismissive of any criticism or metric / data validation from any other game. Interestingly, you don't seem to respond well to this type of argument when you make criticisms of Melee in PoE for example, and someone says they like the Melee, so its fine. Please explain that discrepancy to me. Seems the concept is the same.
And in terms of market, PoE hasn't had much competition for years, and it appears you are saying that people choosing to play nothing at all, is actually a positive for the game, because a niche group like it anyways. Interesting honestly, if you actually believe that. I'd love to seem some Marketing around that from GGG: "PoE, so good, people don't want to play it". I think that T-Shirt would sell well with the hardcore folks here. No joke.
Once D4 is out and its an actual option, then yes, certainly people will decide what is best for them. I agree that D4 is more "digestible" to the average player, so their market base is larger, that's pretty reasonable tbh. I'm sure both games will have people saying "it's better", when its really just better for them. (although I would argue there are actually some objective measurements)
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
- Abraham Lincoln
|
Posted byDarthSki44on Mar 26, 2023, 11:23:22 AM
|
|
People keep using the excuse that PoE is an older game so you can't compare it to a new game... but D3 is 11 years old and has been an abomination since release, it didn't get much better. Why should we expect D4 get much better than its release? Also with Blizzard games at least, what you see in beta typically is what you'll get on release. Such a terrible argument to say the age of a game makes it uncomparable.
Last edited by Alyrea on Mar 26, 2023, 11:46:35 AM
|
Posted byAlyreaon Mar 26, 2023, 11:44:47 AM
|
"
and it appears you are saying that people choosing to play nothing at all, is actually a positive for the game, because a niche group like it anyways.
I didn't say that, so this is probably the 329847th time you are putting words in my mouth. Good job. Please stop trying to read between the lines when there's no deeper meaning there. A lot of people will always choose not to play PoE, because they are aware of the depth, complexity and time investment. Is it good for the game? I don't know. Is it objectively bad for business? Sure. But art is never just about business. I respect when the first thought behind a game is "let's make an experience we want to make - and want other to have" instead of "lets make a game that makes millions - it HAS to cater to everyone". (And before you put words in my mouth again: Sure, a game can do both)
"
Once D4 is out and its an actual option, then yes, certainly people will decide what is best for them. I agree that D4 is more "digestible" to the average player, so their market base is larger, that's pretty reasonable tbh. I'm sure both games will have people saying "it's better", when its really just better for them. (although I would argue there are actually some objective measurements)
Probably the best paragraph you've written in here - ever. And I agree that there are a lot of objective measurements when it comes to quality; graphics, sound, story and other, technical stuff. But as I said before, when push comes to shove, it all boils down to gameplay - and what you like - and I firmly believe that YOU should make up your opinion based on YOUR preferences, and not everyone else's.
Just like A LOT of Elder Scrolls fans still hold Morrowind as the better game because of its depth and complexity. The sequels were made A LOT more "easy digestible", more streamlined and a scaling world, making it much easier - and they sold millions. Better graphics? Sure. Better sound? Sure. Better animations? Sure. But better games? In your eyes: Of course (probably).
Sometimes, just sometimes, you should really consider adapting to the world, instead of demanding that the world adapts to you.
|
Posted byPhrazzon Mar 26, 2023, 11:51:55 AM
|
"
"
and it appears you are saying that people choosing to play nothing at all, is actually a positive for the game, because a niche group like it anyways.
I didn't say that, so this is probably the 329847th time you are putting words in my mouth. Good job. Please stop trying to read between the lines when there's no deeper meaning there. A lot of people will always choose not to play PoE, because they are aware of the depth, complexity and time investment. Is it good for the game? I don't know. Is it objectively bad for business? Sure. But art is never just about business. I respect when the first thought behind a game is "let's make an experience we want to make - and want other to have" instead of "lets make a game that makes millions - it HAS to cater to everyone". (And before you put words in my mouth again: Sure, a game can do both)
"
Once D4 is out and its an actual option, then yes, certainly people will decide what is best for them. I agree that D4 is more "digestible" to the average player, so their market base is larger, that's pretty reasonable tbh. I'm sure both games will have people saying "it's better", when its really just better for them. (although I would argue there are actually some objective measurements)
Probably the best paragraph you've written in here - ever. And I agree that there are a lot of objective measurements when it comes to quality; graphics, sound, story and other, technical stuff. But as I said before, when push comes to shove, it all boils down to gameplay - and what you like - and I firmly believe that YOU should make up your opinion based on YOUR preferences, and not everyone else's.
Just like A LOT of Elder Scrolls fans still hold Morrowind as the better game because of its depth and complexity. The sequels were made A LOT more "easy digestible", more streamlined and a scaling world, making it much easier - and they sold millions. Better graphics? Sure. Better sound? Sure. Better animations? Sure. But better games? In your eyes: Of course (probably).
If we are going to argue the quality of a game look no further than metacritic user score. Poe has 7.9 for comparison the Switch version of D3(because they others had RMT which reduced the score) 7.4.
|
Posted byThesufferingon Mar 26, 2023, 12:41:01 PM
|
"
"
"
and it appears you are saying that people choosing to play nothing at all, is actually a positive for the game, because a niche group like it anyways.
I didn't say that, so this is probably the 329847th time you are putting words in my mouth. Good job. Please stop trying to read between the lines when there's no deeper meaning there. A lot of people will always choose not to play PoE, because they are aware of the depth, complexity and time investment. Is it good for the game? I don't know. Is it objectively bad for business? Sure. But art is never just about business. I respect when the first thought behind a game is "let's make an experience we want to make - and want other to have" instead of "lets make a game that makes millions - it HAS to cater to everyone". (And before you put words in my mouth again: Sure, a game can do both)
"
Once D4 is out and its an actual option, then yes, certainly people will decide what is best for them. I agree that D4 is more "digestible" to the average player, so their market base is larger, that's pretty reasonable tbh. I'm sure both games will have people saying "it's better", when its really just better for them. (although I would argue there are actually some objective measurements)
Probably the best paragraph you've written in here - ever. And I agree that there are a lot of objective measurements when it comes to quality; graphics, sound, story and other, technical stuff. But as I said before, when push comes to shove, it all boils down to gameplay - and what you like - and I firmly believe that YOU should make up your opinion based on YOUR preferences, and not everyone else's.
Just like A LOT of Elder Scrolls fans still hold Morrowind as the better game because of its depth and complexity. The sequels were made A LOT more "easy digestible", more streamlined and a scaling world, making it much easier - and they sold millions. Better graphics? Sure. Better sound? Sure. Better animations? Sure. But better games? In your eyes: Of course (probably).
If we are going to argue the quality of a game look no further than metacritic user score. Poe has 7.9 for comparison the Switch version of D3(because they others had RMT which reduced the score) 7.4.
And Elden Ring has a Metacritic User Score of 7.8.
Your point again?
|
Posted byPrevyon Mar 26, 2023, 1:05:13 PM
|
"
And Elden Ring has a Metacritic User Score of 7.8.
Your point again?
Yes, that is a good score. Anything close to 8.0 or above is a very good game.
|
Posted byThesufferingon Mar 26, 2023, 1:18:26 PM
|
"
People keep using the excuse that PoE is an older game so you can't compare it to a new game... but D3 is 11 years old and has been an abomination since release, it didn't get much better. Why should we expect D4 get much better than its release? Also with Blizzard games at least, what you see in beta typically is what you'll get on release. Such a terrible argument to say the age of a game makes it incomparable.
But yes, comparing a 10 year old game with constant expansions to any other new game and expecting the new game to have as much content is just braindead levels of logic.
If you want to compare D3 to PoE, sure, but your subjective opinion that D3 is "an abomination" is just subjective as my opinion that the last few years of PoE have dragged it into the mud worse than D3.
Now if you want to make a real comparison to D4, PoE 1.0 is flat out garbage. Take away the leagues and expansions, leave only the maps, it's just as much garbage as rifts in D3, if not worse.
You people have absurdly inflated expectations of new games, doesn't matter who is making it, and that's just a recipe to get frustrated every time instead of just trying to enjoy something different, which D4 is shaping to be.
Ruthless should be [Removed by Support]. Last edited by AdRonZh3Ro on Mar 26, 2023, 2:21:21 PM
|
Posted byAdRonZh3Roon Mar 26, 2023, 2:15:35 PMOn Probation
|
|
same. Their reputation aside. I think D2 was amazing. I think playing it now is boring, compared to how it felt at the time. I think POE can be streamlined and the fun bled out of it. People complain that its too complicated, I call it depth. Might argue poe isnt "deep" but compared to any other arpg its not even a contest is it?
People hyping diablo IMO are jaded at poe, or are nostalgic. Maybe not but thats how it feels. I didnt play the beta* but I watched it and the graphics didnt stand out to me. The health jugs look out of place. Like cherries you pick up for points. Everything I see feels like act 1 of POE. I dont think Im a poe fan boy but maybe I am /shrug. I just dont get any of the excitement. TBF I feel the same watching LE and the rest. to cartoonish, or cheap feeling generally. I wish I had D4 hype, I get burned tf out on poe after a league... I feel like I need to skip every other one unless theyre like amazing.
|
Posted bymitchboneon Mar 26, 2023, 6:26:23 PM
|
"
"
Why isn't PoE, if it's such the superior game, doing better in terms of the market?
You have been explained this a million times, yet you keep ignoring it. I'll try once more: PoE will always stay pretty niche, because it's not as "easy digestible" as other games. It requires more time investment, and isn't really speaking to the "instant gratification crowd" because of depth, complexity and grindy nature. And for people appreciating those factors, PoE is a VERY good game.
We've been through this before, so I really don't know why I bother, but you seem to have this attitude that "a game that caters to more people is a better game than a game that caters to a smaller, specific crowd", which is of course false. Do I think PoE is better? Yes. Why? Because it does the things I value better than the competition. Does other games do a lot of things better than PoE? Of course. But judging a game always comes down to gameplay, and gameplay will always be subjective - no matter how popular a game is.
------------
On topic: I was actually pleasantly surprised by the D4 beta. It does a lot of things right, including mood and art style, something its predecessor failed at. It also seems to have a little bit more depth that D3, but it's hard to get the full picture without paragon boards.
That said, I'm not sure if I will buy it. The MMO-type scaling of the world and your character, as well as the shared, open world where you're fighting a monsters at level 25 and a level 3 character comes a long and two-shots that monster, is very hard to swallow. The forced use of VERY underwhelming basic skills (on some characters) is also very flow-limiting.
And all these virtues of PoE that you are extolling are exactly why it is held back and is a niche product. Honestly, it doesn't have to be this way, at all. Hell, just making Act 1/2 more player friendly, toning down Brutus will help a lot. Why gatekeep players at Brutus if the game will get easier the rest of the way? Removing his adds was a stupid move as it makes it very difficult to fight with no flask regen, and that in and of itself is messed up, as Brutus is one of the few if only fight in the campaign that doesn't have adds for flask regen. Why gatekeep on that guy? Same with that guy turrets you with ice attacks in the second zone. Why leave him there? Players don't learn anything from him, as there's no other enemy AI that does that afaik.
Add more tutorials for Blight/Metamorph, etc so the players doesn't get overwhelmed with it. Or at least inform the player there's no harm in ignoring mechanics, or better yet, give the player an option to never see them until they want to. (Yes, it comes in Atlas, probably too late, as most folks who reach Atlas aren't overwhelmed)
You catch more players with honey than vinegar, and a lot of the vinegar in PoE is right at the start of the game and doesn't need to be there.
Last edited by jdp29 on Mar 26, 2023, 7:52:17 PM
|
Posted byjdp29on Mar 26, 2023, 7:48:28 PM
|
"
And all these virtues of PoE that you are extolling are exactly why it is held back and is a niche product. Honestly, it doesn't have to be this way, at all. Hell, just making Act 1/2 more player friendly, toning down Brutus will help a lot. Why gatekeep players at Brutus if the game will get easier the rest of the way? Removing his adds was a stupid move as it makes it very difficult to fight with no flask regen, and that in and of itself is messed up, as Brutus is one of the few if only fight in the campaign that doesn't have adds for flask regen. Why gatekeep on that guy? Same with that guy turrets you with ice attacks in the second zone. Why leave him there? Players don't learn anything from him, as there's no other enemy AI that does that afaik.
Add more tutorials for Blight/Metamorph, etc so the players doesn't get overwhelmed with it. Or at least inform the player there's no harm in ignoring mechanics, or better yet, give the player an option to never see them until they want to. (Yes, it comes in Atlas, probably too late, as most folks who reach Atlas aren't overwhelmed)
You catch more players with honey than vinegar, and a lot of the vinegar in PoE is right at the start of the game and doesn't need to be there.
They made the change a few years back to make the acts harder. On the one hand it makes sense. If you cant beat the butcher relatively easy, then you have a problem with the mechanics. People beat the butch with a bunch of one links on ruthless mode.
The first time i fought the new butcher i died 20 times. But now i die maybe once. If you cant beat Butcher without dying, you will not be able to beat any of the pinnacle bosses.
I still hate acts tho. So *shrugs*.
|
Posted byThesufferingon Mar 26, 2023, 8:15:42 PM
|
