What content is still worth doing lootwise?

I honestly have to disagree with your "common sense" on a fundamental level. This is an ARPG, ARPGs are supposed to be about killing monsters to find items to kill more and bigger monsters for more and better items.

Butchering this core concept in order to make sure people use trade is just fundamentally wrong. Its the tail wagging with the dog. Trade should be an extra option for people to find niche/specific stuff they might have trouble finding otherwise it shouldn't be the fundamental core of the game. At this point you can't even access most content of the game consistently without involving trade. Pretty much all the gear you will want to put on a char has to come from trade it's literally the core of the game. If this was some kind of economy focused strategy game or something that would be fine but not for an ARPG.

Yes LE doesn't have trade yet, but from what i've read regarding their plans for it they are well aware what trade is supposed to be and will introduce it in a matter that doesn't kill the core concept of their game.

Imo all of this has little to do with the release cycle. GGG could very well release new content every 4 months without making trade the core of the game. They just got stuck with their idea of "items must be tradeable to have value", underestimated the power of trade and started to design the rest of the game around it because they refuse to back down on that stupid idea. All of this happened long before the 4 leagues per year cycle even became a thing.

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

I honestly have to disagree with your "common sense" on a fundamental level. This is an ARPG, ARPGs are supposed to be about killing monsters to find items to kill more and bigger monsters for more and better items.

Butchering this core concept in order to make sure people use trade is just fundamentally wrong. Its the tail wagging with the dog. Trade should be an extra option for people to find niche/specific stuff they might have trouble finding otherwise it shouldn't be the fundamental core of the game. At this point you can't even access most content of the game consistently without involving trade. Pretty much all the gear you will want to put on a char has to come from trade it's literally the core of the game. If this was some kind of economy focused strategy game or something that would be fine but not for an ARPG.

I guess this is where we do in fact disagree :)

I dont think this core has been butchered. Other than unique items and my 1st 6link I refuse to buy items. Instead I´ll kill monsters, pick up crafting bases and materials, craft whatever I need and move on.

The game still is all about killing monsters and picking up loot as far as Im concerned.
The only difference is that you wont be able to pick up BiS items from the floor and Im cool with that, because BiS arent needed anyways.


Like I said several posts ago:
Ive been in the same spot you are finding yourself in as well. I´ll repeat it once more: Embrace crafting.
Its not as bad as you think it is. Its plenty powerful and allows you to avoid having to trade for the most part. The more you do incorporate crafting into your gameplay the more important loot will be. If you dont, well then PoE is all about farming currency and trading all day long.

The choice is yours and keep in mind:
The things you choose to ignore are bound to influence you the most - usually in a negative way ;)

"

Orbaal wrote:

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

I honestly have to disagree with your "common sense" on a fundamental level. This is an ARPG, ARPGs are supposed to be about killing monsters to find items to kill more and bigger monsters for more and better items.

Butchering this core concept in order to make sure people use trade is just fundamentally wrong. Its the tail wagging with the dog. Trade should be an extra option for people to find niche/specific stuff they might have trouble finding otherwise it shouldn't be the fundamental core of the game. At this point you can't even access most content of the game consistently without involving trade. Pretty much all the gear you will want to put on a char has to come from trade it's literally the core of the game. If this was some kind of economy focused strategy game or something that would be fine but not for an ARPG.

I guess this is where we do in fact disagree :)

I dont think this core has been butchered. Other than unique items and my 1st 6link I refuse to buy items. Instead I´ll kill monsters, pick up crafting bases and materials, craft whatever I need and move on.

The game still is all about killing monsters and picking up loot as far as Im concerned.
The only difference is that you wont be able to pick up BiS items from the floor and Im cool with that, because BiS arent needed anyways.


Like I said several posts ago:
Ive been in the same spot you are finding yourself in as well. I´ll repeat it once more: Embrace crafting.
Its not as bad as you think it is. Its plenty powerful and allows you to avoid having to trade for the most part. The more you do incorporate crafting into your gameplay the more important loot will be. If you dont, well then PoE is all about farming currency and trading all day long.

The choice is yours and keep in mind:
The things you choose to ignore are bound to influence you the most - usually in a negative way ;)

You can play this game like a proper ARPG if you can accept the fact that it's the most inefficient way of playing. I've done exactly that for ~3 years now so i know it works. Doesn't change the fact that trade is the games core at this point with everything designed around it and by ignoring it you just gimp yourself massively. Plus i never actually got around it completely. There are always cases where i end up being forced into it, even in standard. Like when shaper decides to drop shape fragments 20 times in a row and i want to do uber elder. Or if all i can drop are guardian maps from 3 guardians while the other is completely lost or or or.

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

You can play this game like a proper ARPG if you can accept the fact that it's the most inefficient way of playing. I've done exactly that for ~3 years now so i know it works. Doesn't change the fact that trade is the games core at this point with everything designed around it and by ignoring it you just gimp yourself massively. Plus i never actually got around it completely. There are always cases where i end up being forced into it, even in standard. Like when shaper decides to drop shape fragments 20 times in a row and i want to do uber elder. Or if all i can drop are guardian maps from 3 guardians while the other is completely lost or or or.

Do I gimp myself?

I dont think so. If you want to be super efficient, you will end up min/maxing the fun out the game. Is that really worth it?

Its your job to find the sweetspot between being efficient and having fun.
The game´s job is simply to provide you with a framework to do just that.


This is where we do fundamentally disagree.
You have a certain way in mind of how the game should function and if doesnt, its the games or devs fault.
Whereas I just want the devs to put out as much content as possible, allowing me to pick and choose whats best to support my preferred playstyle. Doesnt need to be perfect, good enough will do.
As long as Im able to do that, Ill have fun playing the game.

I dont need to be superefficient. Whats the point?
Beating the content I want to beat 1 week earlier or finish my build 1 week earlier? Big deal...
Id rather play for another week and have fun doing so.


Pretty much all the downsides you mentioned in your last paragraph can easily be mitigated by joining a guild. Doesnt even need to be a big one.
A few active players will do.

SC trade leagues population basically precludes content being worth doing for loot until you hit a very extreme supply/demand relationship, that's pretty good for some players but it isn't good if you want to value your content in terms of "worth". Personally I think the distillation of all of the games activities into currency/hour is degenerate to the experience.

When it comes down to it all content types are pulls on the slot machine, pretty much everything on the OP list has value if you hit the right odds. For example I know plenty of people enjoying blue boys this league that get fractured shards semi regularly, I ran them until 98 and never got a single shard.

On the opposite side I've had 3 amamamamus gaze this league out of abyss which I only ran 99-100 and that's very solid currency chunks on HC.

I've played long enough to experience this change over time but basically it isn't rare to kill all the bosses anymore and speed farmers have gotten so efficient both at trading for contracts and executing them that all the currency you used to get in effort arbitrage has been removed. So stop trying to find value because you won't, pull the slot lever and enjoy it.

You could represent this with average mapping player competency/efficiency vs value of content rewards on a chart and Its just a downward slope to our current values, probably has a small spike on each new content cycle as the best players adapt faster but the average catches up pretty quick.

"

Orbaal wrote:

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

You can play this game like a proper ARPG if you can accept the fact that it's the most inefficient way of playing. I've done exactly that for ~3 years now so i know it works. Doesn't change the fact that trade is the games core at this point with everything designed around it and by ignoring it you just gimp yourself massively. Plus i never actually got around it completely. There are always cases where i end up being forced into it, even in standard. Like when shaper decides to drop shape fragments 20 times in a row and i want to do uber elder. Or if all i can drop are guardian maps from 3 guardians while the other is completely lost or or or.

Do I gimp myself?

I dont think so. If you want to be super efficient, you will end up min/maxing the fun out the game. Is that really worth it?

Its your job to find the sweetspot between being efficient and having fun.
The game´s job is simply to provide you with a framework to do just that.


This is where we do fundamentally disagree.
You have a certain way in mind of how the game should function and if doesnt, its the games or devs fault.
Whereas I just want the devs to put out as much content as possible, allowing me to pick and choose whats best to support my preferred playstyle. Doesnt need to be perfect, good enough will do.
As long as Im able to do that, Ill have fun playing the game.

I dont need to be superefficient. Whats the point?
Beating the content I want to beat 1 week earlier or finish my build 1 week earlier? Big deal...
Id rather play for another week and have fun doing so.


Pretty much all the downsides you mentioned in your last paragraph can easily be mitigated by joining a guild. Doesnt even need to be a big one.
A few active players will do.

I get your point as i pretty much do exactly that. Use the framework provided by the game to try and have fun and it works, somewhat. It's not about being super efficient either, i don't really care about that.

But i do sign to the statement that in a good game the best strategies should also be the most fun strategies. GGG intentionally violates that concept with several core mechanics and i think that's bad design, am i not allowed to have that opinion? Or am i just not allowed to voice it here?

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

But i do sign to the statement that in a good game the best strategies should also be the most fun strategies. GGG intentionally violates that concept with several core mechanics and i think that's bad design, am i not allowed to have that opinion? Or am i just not allowed to voice it here?

Of course you are allowed to voice it. I never said you werent.

However, the meaning of the word "fun" is highly subjective and cant be measured objectively. This is why I think the premise of your statement is pointless.

YOU not having "fun" doesnt mean it cannot be "fun".
Its just your definition of fun. Each and everyone of us has a slightly different definition what "fun" means.

Whats even the point of discussing that?

I dare say you will have a hard time finding a lot of people saying that the current trade system is the most fun aspect of the game. There is always that one guy but i think even if there are slight differences the general sentiment is the same for the vast majority of players.

That aside, what percentage of discussions done in any forum in the world actually leads to a clear universal agreement? If that is the requirement to have a discussion we can close this place.

My goal isnt to achieve universal agreement. Thats nonsense and is never going to happen.

My goal is to point out that players are very much responsible for their own gameplay experience, meaning they should work on that rather than pointing fingers at the devs for every inconvenience they do encounter.

Trade is the perfect example.
Its annoying for sure, no debate to be had.
Its also THE most efficient shortcut to get exactly what you want and still people are complaining about trade not being convenient enough.
Basically complaining about having to wait a few minutes to complete a trade and having to show up in person, while saving them the time to grind for crafting materials and acquiring the knowledge how to craft to begin with in order to create the exact item from scratch themselves, knowing full well this would take them exponentially more time than completing a trade.

The benefit is so blatantly obvious and downside by comparison so irrelevant and yet people keep complaining.


This is what annoys me and thats why I keep pointing this out, whether its about trade or something else.
This game provides player with much more agency than any other game Im aware off - IF any given player is willing to put in the effort required to take advantage of said agency and thats a big IF.

Thats also where most of the disagreement stems from.
A lot of players dont want to put in effort, do research, figure stuff out, learn, improve, adapt and whatnot. Everyone can do it but not everyone wants to do it but even those who cant be bothered putting in effort demand the same outcome compared to someone who does put in the effort.

Also sure as hell someone is going to call me a whiteknight or GGG shill or elitist and whatnot for not agreeing with their premise that GGG are evil devs, torturing players for no reason and laughing their asses off while twirling their mustaches.

Thats usually how discussion go - especially here on GD.

"

Orbaal wrote:

Trade is the perfect example.
Its annoying for sure, no debate to be had.
Its also THE most efficient shortcut to get exactly what you want and still people are complaining about trade not being convenient enough

That's not what people are saying, and its a poor summary of the reasons folks want better trade. (Or an AH)

A few reasons: Pricing fixing, scams, bots, no responses, currency rate control, and availability of the trade partner (the seller needs to stop doing what they are doing)

So it's not all about people getting what they want, it's also about selling what they don't need and converting it to something they can use, safely and efficiently.