What content is still worth doing lootwise?

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

(within reason)

We clearly define "100% deterministic" differently. Crafting now, no matter the knowledge, always has a chance to fail at some point. Sure, if we're talking unlimited currency and unlimited tries, the law of large numbers prevail. But shouldn't those perfect items be gated behind the hardest/highest content? Isn't that the whole purpose of pushing on and progressing?

I do at least firmly believe that the best/close to perfect items should be gated behind the hardest/highest content/highest dedication/highest knowledge. That's the whole reason behind progressing and min/maxing IMO - at least when the game in no way, shape or form requires those items. Crafting close to perfect items in yellow maps defeats the whole purpose of progressing in my mind. If that's an "elitist take", so be it - but this is coming from a guy that hasn't even tried the hardest content, and probably never own a 85%+ item - and certainly never been able to craft it.

But for all I care, they could throw crafting out the door, keeping only the crafting bench as an "item altering" tool - and increased the quality of drops the higher you progress. I don't really think that's the best course for the game as a whole, but for me - and my playstyle? Sure.

"

Phrazz wrote:

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

(within reason)

We clearly define "100% deterministic" differently. Crafting now, no matter the knowledge, always has a chance to fail at some point. Sure, if we're talking unlimited currency and unlimited tries, the law of large numbers prevail. But shouldn't those perfect items be gated behind the hardest/highest content? Isn't that the whole purpose of pushing on and progressing?

I do at least firmly believe that the best/close to perfect items should be gated behind the hardest/highest content/highest dedication/highest knowledge. That's the whole reason behind progressing and min/maxing IMO - at least when the game in no way, shape or form requires those items. Crafting close to perfect items in yellow maps defeats the whole purpose of progressing in my mind. If that's an "elitist take", so be it - but this is coming from a guy that hasn't even tried the hardest content, and probably never own a 85%+ item - and certainly never been able to craft it.

But for all I care, they could throw crafting out the door, keeping only the crafting bench as an "item altering" tool - and increased the quality of drops the higher you progress. I don't really think that's the best course for the game as a whole, but for me - and my playstyle? Sure.

For the record what I meant by "within reason" is that some of the bench & essence crafts have varying ranges, that you can change with multiple clicks. So yeah 50-55 Dexerity, or 50-70 Life isn't 100% deterministic but its super close.

"

Vennto wrote:

You´re always very in love with your own opinion, aren´t you?

As opposed to what? Disliking my own opinion? That's bizarre dude. I would have to imagine everyone that posts has their own opinion, that unless they have multiple personalities, they agree with? No?

"

Like, I don´t understand why it´s a shit take to think otherwise. Of course it is gated behind currency (no matter if you use it for trading or to craft the stuff yourself), and why wouldn´t it? I ask you, in all honesty - what is the fun behind giving things out free, which is basically what you ask for?

I'm sorry but time invested isn't "free", that's ridiculous in concept. I'm honestly trying to get to a point of understanding why doing 100 harvests for example, to get an augment, isn't ok, but paying some dude on TFT with divines for the same thing is. You are going to have to explain that to me without it somehow coming across as elite, because I can't rationalize it.

"

And if you can´t get shit done in 3 months then you might need to work on your efficiency, not make the game easier as there are PLENTY of easy games out there.

This is exactly what I was talking about. The fuck all given to average players by the elite is so toxic I don't even know what to say. And yeah, if you look at the market plenty of folks playing other games, and will be playing other games instead of PoE. [Removed by Support]

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

As opposed to what? Disliking my own opinion? That's bizarre dude. I would have to imagine everyone that posts has their own opinion, that unless they have multiple personalities, they agree with? No?

Maybe not outright calling other opinions "garbage", "shit take", "bullshit" or any of the other words you use in those cases. Agree to disagree doesn´t necessarily mean shitting on other peoples opinion.

"

DarthSki44 wrote:

I'm sorry but time invested isn't "free", that's ridiculous in concept. I'm honestly trying to get to a point of understanding why doing 100 harvests for example, to get an augment, isn't ok, but paying some dude on TFT with divines for the same thing is. You are going to have to explain that to me without it somehow coming across as elite, because I can't rationalize it.

Well, explaining that without coming across as elite is kind of difficult when it comes to you, because the second someone references the ability to improve farming in this game in regards to efficiency you always play the "elite-talking-"card. But for me the actual reason is two-fold, and only one half comes down to the argument you expect to hear so I´ll explain it as good as I can, why both things play an important role:

Imagine the following thought experiment. You have player A, a very casual player, and player B, one of the so hated elite. Lets further estimate that an augment costs 2 divines on TFT.

In your first scenario, it takes both players 100 harvests to get the augment. Player B will be able to farm those 100 maps/harvests 3 times as efficient/fast as player A, meaning he will get triple the amount of augments in the same time with completely optimized setups.

In the second scenario, focussed on currency, we can also say that in the timespan of 100 maps player A makes (ignoring everything else for the sake of the example) 2 divines, while player B makes 6 divines. Now, we established that the elite player will inevitably end up with better gear anyway since he farms more augments in the same time, netting on average better results while rerolling as well as more rerolls/augments in general, correct?

Here comes the kicker though: If you make it possible to trade, then none of both players have to farm harvest if they don´t like to. They can farm what they actually ENJOY! So yes, you might say TFT is a place for the elites cause they set the prices, but no one forbids player A to join and just buy 1/3 of the the tools player B buys. TFT is not the problem, TFT is a band-aid solution to a system that in the past didn´t allow a more accessible way to trades, hence it got nerfed and brought into trading with lifeforce and I rather have this current full-on player agency for EVERYONE rather than just for the elite for the sake of potential power. And in regards to your "time isn´t free" - of course it is not, hence people want stuff faster in the first place. The question is why you accept someone being casual in its game experience while demanding top-tier gear instead of holding them to their own standards, ignoring their FOMO asking them to just improve their game knowledge to push their chars boundaries with their own skill rather than with a way that makes it easier.

"

This is exactly what I was talking about. The fuck all given to average players by the elite is so toxic I don't even know what to say. And yeah, if you look at the market plenty of folks playing other games, and will be playing other games instead of PoE.

I have no problems with casuals, not in the slightest. I just dislike that everything has to be made easier when the evidence is pretty clear that, once you reach a certain point, the game isn´t as difficult as people make it to be. And it´s not time-investment that gets you there, its game knowledge and I just oppose of making PoE more of a cake-walk when it is one of the bastions that holds players to a higher standard in terms of what they have to bring to the table. You refer to me as one of those elite players, but I know exacly how I started PoE - in Metamorph, with like 3 Exalts to my name. And then it was 10 in Delirium. And then it was 20, 50, 200, first mirror, 2 mirrors, and so on. Did I at any point increase my time played? Actually, the opposite happened - I mostly end up playing newer leagues less than the one before, the only variable that changed is my experience and for me as a player, seeing what I can reach in this game just with that knowledge is a very fun, comforting and rewarding thing and I really don´t get why you want to take this away by giving out stuff so easy that there is no reason to push to that level in the first place, which is what most of your suggestions would do.

And I surely as hell am not planning on making an "AMA", as opposite to you I don´t even think I am that elite. I play the easiest game mode, there are people that make far more money than me and have a way better understanding of the game, I am still bad at making my own builds... And I surely value my own time too, hence 38/40 is enough for me.

"

Vennto wrote:

Imagine the following thought experiment. You have player A, a very casual player, and player B, one of the so hated elite. Lets further estimate that an augment costs 2 divines on TFT.

In your first scenario, it takes both players 100 harvests to get the augment. Player B will be able to farm those 100 maps/harvests 3 times as efficient/fast as player A, meaning he will get triple the amount of augments in the same time with completely optimized setups.

In the second scenario, focussed on currency, we can also say that in the timespan of 100 maps player A makes (ignoring everything else for the sake of the example) 2 divines, while player B makes 6 divines. Now, we established that the elite player will inevitably end up with better gear anyway since he farms more augments in the same time, netting on average better results while rerolling as well as more rerolls/augments in general, correct?

Here comes the kicker though: If you make it possible to trade, then none of both players have to farm harvest if they don´t like to. They can farm what they actually ENJOY! So yes, you might say TFT is a place for the elites cause they set the prices, but no one forbids player A to join and just buy 1/3 of the the tools player B buys. TFT is not the problem, TFT is a band-aid solution to a system that in the past didn´t allow a more accessible way to trades, hence it got nerfed and brought into trading with lifeforce and I rather have this current full-on player agency for EVERYONE rather than just for the elite for the sake of potential power. And in regards to your "time isn´t free" - of course it is not, hence people want stuff faster in the first place. The question is why you accept someone being casual in its game experience while demanding top-tier gear instead of holding them to their own standards, ignoring their FOMO asking them to just improve their game knowledge to push their chars boundaries with their own skill rather than with a way that makes it easier

But that isn't what happened with Harvest in general, I was just highlighting the concept of currency vs time. GGG removed the targeted augments because they were seemingly too powerful... but all they did is eliminate the accessibility for the average player. This didn't impact the more elite player too much, so what exactly was the point? High-end remains the same, lower-ish end impacted greatly. That's a hard concept generally speaking to address without highlighting the intentional inequality. (which is further confusing given the leagues are temporary)

To me this is another situation where a sledgehammer was used in place of a scalpel, and what caused all the drama around Harvest. They seemed to react directly to Reddit Item Showcases and TFT item services. It also further pushed the gulf between casual and elite. In fact in helped neither, and again, GGG looks at what a tiny minority of players are doing to balance the game.

But hey perhaps in the end GGG prefers this? I think it's not the best business strategy, and they seemingly react panicky when a league is perceived negatively overall, but how does it actual make sense when they continually develop this way? The casual vs. elite gulf, QoL outsourcing, community tool prevalence, and player hostile design is going to push average players away.

When D4 comes for example this summer, the contrast is going to be stark. Perhaps GGG is ok with sacrificing millions of dollars and many players for this more hardcore niche base, but that's an easy thing to say, when it wasn't a real-world scenario(due to lack of competition). Let's see if the "vanity metrics" CW mentioned are really that when the numbers officially start showing themselves. It's one of the things I find most interesting about PoE finally having some genre competition with the D4 launch.

Why do people even try to debate with this guy ? He's posting here for 10 years just cause he likes reading his own messages instead of actually playing the game. Good heavens.

It's all unrewarding and bad. I rerolled my atlas 50+ times this season. Tried everything multiple times. Harvest is most profitable as you just become a farmer.

This game is made like a real life economy and not a video game. To make profit you have to be rich. To get rich you got to play 12+ hrs everyday or have rich friends.

This is not a video game. Its more of a addicting gambling simulator. I don't consider the game fun. I consider it addicting though.

This is maybe one of the worse games I ever played. I don't play much I quit a year ago and came back for this league to see if its now enjoyable. It is not...

alch and go.

"

Phrazz wrote:

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

Way to put the core problem of POE on public display

It is what it is. PoE has always been - and will always be centered around the economy. And as long as a game is centered around an economy, 'most' people will play that economy, and base their gameplay accordingly. 'Attacking' this, is like attacking the queens movement pattern in chess; sure, you can dislike it, but it will never be changed.

Do I agree with you? Well, on some points. Do I think they should increase the quality of dropped items, and give players more agency over how to farm said items? Yes, I do. Do I at the same time see what this would do to trade, and how easy and cheap most items would be? Yes. Do I agree with you when it comes to crafting? Absolutely not, as I do not think that 100% deterministic crafting belongs in games like this. At all.

But the balance between trade, drops and crafting is a delicate balance. Some would say impossible. That's why the game progresses and changes. They give and they take away. But at the end of the day; PoE will ALWAYS be centered around the economy, and dedicated non-SSF players will ALWAYS play to maximize their gains - and the rest will follow - and mechanics and strats will be judge based on that.

I know it's always been like that and i don't expect it to change. I also won't go and make 5 topics per week complaining about it but Orbaal pointed it out so nicely i couldn't help it.

As for crafting, it shouldn't be 100% deterministic but the 10% we have right now is worse. Literally the only thing about current POE crafting that deserves the name is meta crafts. The rest of the process is just pull the lever until you get lucky.
If you want to see an example of good itemisation, look at last epoch. The best items drop on the floor and the crafting hit's just the right spot in terms of rng vs deterministic. Mainly because you don't run the risk of destroying your entire work so far. At worst you can't continue improving it. It's really too bad that games development goes at a snails pace with hardly any new content per year -.-

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

If you want to see an example of good itemisation, look at last epoch. The best items drop on the floor and the crafting hit's just the right spot in terms of rng vs deterministic.

I dont think this is a fair comparison.

LE has no option to trade yet. As soon as the devs introduce trade, they will have to rebalance item drops and/or crafting.
If they do invest into developing this feature, they want it to be used and that means neither drops nor crafting are allowed to be good enough to bypass trading.

Thats just common sense.


GGG has taken this multiple steps ahead by introducing a bazillion different crafting options. Means they did spend time & money on developing those options and clearly want them to be relevant to some degree.

If loot in itself was good enough or simple tweaks like adding 1 guaranteed mod via crafting bench was good enough, then GGG just flushed all the time & money spent on their development down the toilet.


Its not GGG being evil or wanting to cater to the elites or whatever BS some people love to claim. They simply have to churn out stuff every 3 months and once its out, its very hard to remove or nerf it substantially. The Harvest outcry back in 3.13 or 3.14 rather is a the perfect showcase.
Meaning: They are free to introduce all they want but they arent allowed to remove or nerf it once it went core or a portion of the playerbase will riot.

And like I said: They cannot stop releasing new content, which also means they have to make room for this content. This means there cant be a perfect loot or crafting system. Once perfection is achieved, there is no need for new stuff and thats absolutely not what GGG wants for obvious reasons.


Feel free to dislike this all you want. Thats cool.
At the end of the days it boils down to this:
You either want a finished and therefore stale game or you want an ever changing and progressing game that cant and wont ever be finished.

Both variations come with upsides and downsides.
Pick your poison and enjoy.