Path of Exile 2.0 Should Have an Auction House

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Baharoth15 wrote:

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Cyzax wrote:

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Baharoth15 wrote:

The whole manifesto is such ridiculous joke, though not the funny sort.

I wouldn't call it that... I'd call it the least bad solution to a complex problem...

The components of this problem include (but is not limited to):
- A loot system with too much randomness, where you have to be VERY 'lucky' to hit the right combinations of mods which is very rare
- A unique selection where most are worthless
- A crafting system that is either too easy, or too hard...
- Game difficulty is not in balance
- A reward system that rewards the 'haves' exponentially, but not the 'have-nots'
- The skill/item complexity means too many combinations are too powerful
- The same game balance is played by people who trade (who are not necessarily SSF), and people who don't
- The game drops OCEANS of 'good' items, though most aren't picked up. They would be (by bots) if selling them was easier...

What are the solutions?
1. Free trade. The consequence is that loot doesn't matter and trade becomes mandatory. GGG would have to balance the game after players having 'good' gear, which could only realistically be acquired through trading. The D3 solution which was removed from that game for good reason.
2. Current trade system. Not ideal, but at least everyone can play
3. No trade. Possibly the best solution, but would be a HUGE amount of re-balancing work for GGG (lots of money spent for no real gain, and a lot of risk)

There are no good solutions... The current one is probably the least bad...

Non of that changes the fact that the first 3 points are mostly or at least partially in the game because of trade. They made the drops this bad because trade is there. They removed the only relevant form of crafting because of trade and they keep nerfing things thinking its fine to have stuff with abysmal droprates because people can trade for it. They even introduced trade only items with forbidden flesh/flame.

Trade is not the solution to any loot related problems, its the cause of it and to make it even worse they are causing all those problems because of a shitty trade system that is hardly any better than 3rd party site trades via d2jsp back in 2000. You say auction house would be worse but would it really? Could loot be any more meaningless in this game than it already is? I dont think so. Meanwhile a less annoying trade system would at least allow you to play the game instead of standing in your hideout all the time.

"the only relevant form of crafting" is not harvest. harvest was disgusting overpowered but other forms of crafting like fossils and essences are very good in the right hands.
most of your gg items are crafted with fossils/essences from good fractured bases. its the main way of obtaining bis gear.

EDIT: if you think loot is meaningless: do it like i do and go play ruthless. its very enjoyable.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

Could loot be any more meaningless in this game than it already is?

Yes... It absolutely could!

Remember, more players than not play self-found! Maybe not SSF league, but they don't trade. That is in effect self-found.

From the trade manifesto:
"Both of the above points are even worse when you consider that the level of engagement with trade varies substantially from player to player. Most players who play Path of Exile never trade. Out of the players who do trade, most only complete a few trades in a league."

If easy trade was implemented, given that so MANY 'good' items drop, GGG would have to sharply adjust the game balance towards 'harder'. They'd have no choice in the matter unless they decided this isn't a 'hard' game any more.

However, that would instantly alienate the (majority) self-found player base as they'd no longer be able to play. The loot they find would not be worth using.

So yes, loot may be meaningless to you, but it is not meaningless to a lot of players, and according to GGG, the majority of players.

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pandafutter wrote:

"the only relevant form of crafting" is not harvest. harvest was disgusting overpowered but other forms of crafting like fossils and essences are very good in the right hands.
most of your gg items are crafted with fossils/essences from good fractured bases. its the main way of obtaining bis gear.

EDIT: if you think loot is meaningless: do it like i do and go play ruthless. its very enjoyable.

Essences and fossils aren't crafting, just gambling. You pull the lever over and over and over again until you hopefully get the minimum stats you want and then (best case) you go to the next iteration of pulling the lever with metacrafting hoping to get at least 1 or 2 extra mods of your choosing. Assuming the stuff you want can even be achieved using meta crafting, otherwise you end up gambling again. Plus this whole process has such abyssmal chances of success that the amount of currency needed for it is absurd. Unless you already have hundreds of divines you shouldn'T even start a crafting project because the chances of you ending up with no currency and a bricked item in the middle is pretty big.

As for ruthless, sorry i am not into S&M.

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Remember, more players than not play self-found! Maybe not SSF league, but they don't trade. That is in effect self-found.

Do you have ANY evidence to back that up? No you don't it's just wishful thinking. SC trade is the main mode of this game, not SSF so SSF is a meaningless anecdote in regards to loot balance.

So what if GGG made drops even worse? I league started this league for the first time since 3.05. I stopped picking up rares in white maps. White/magic i never picked up at all. The only unique i bothered to pick up was a lucky inspired learning. That's it. I picked up 1 item in about 2 weeks of playing. Everything else was vendorfood at best. Even if you removed that item as well, it wouldn't have changed much in the great scheme of things. I can't even remember the last time i bothered to pick up a rare in standard. Not having that awful trade to deal with to get stuff i want however would greatly change things.

If GGG is sooo concerned with SSF as you imply they are, they could just provide an actual SSF mode with adjusted drop rates instead of the current form that's essentially just a badge and nothing more. They wasted god knows how many dev hours on their little maso mode project but fixing their core game is to expensive to even consider, great mentality.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

Do you have ANY evidence to back that up? No you don't it's just wishful thinking.

Yes I do...

From the trade manifesto:
"Both of the above points are even worse when you consider that the level of engagement with trade varies substantially from player to player. Most players who play Path of Exile never trade. Out of the players who do trade, most only complete a few trades in a league."

GGG is the only source for this type of information, and generally they don't lie. People may wish they lie when what they say collide with peoples cherished misperceptions, but usually that is just 'wishful thinking'. If GGG say most people don't trade, that's as good information as you can get.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

If GGG is sooo concerned with SSF as you imply they are, they could just provide an actual SSF mode with adjusted drop rates instead of the current form

GGG is not as far as I've seen very concerned about SSF. That is not what we're taking about. What is the issue is that the majority of players doesn't trade, and GGG want to keep them.

Wasting resources balancing what would essentially be another game is not economically feasible either.

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Cyzax wrote:

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Baharoth15 wrote:

Do you have ANY evidence to back that up? No you don't it's just wishful thinking.

Yes I do...

From the trade manifesto:
"Both of the above points are even worse when you consider that the level of engagement with trade varies substantially from player to player. Most players who play Path of Exile never trade. Out of the players who do trade, most only complete a few trades in a league."

GGG is the only source for this type of information, and generally they don't lie. People may wish they lie when what they say collide with peoples cherished misperceptions, but usually that is just 'wishful thinking'. If GGG say most people don't trade, that's as good information as you can get.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

If GGG is sooo concerned with SSF as you imply they are, they could just provide an actual SSF mode with adjusted drop rates instead of the current form

GGG is not as far as I've seen very concerned about SSF. That is not what we're taking about. What is the issue is that the majority of players doesn't trade, and GGG want to keep them.

Wasting resources balancing what would essentially be another game is not economically feasible either.

And how many of those "never trade" "players" actually make it out of acts? Or act 1 even for that matter. Unless we get some information on what they call "players" there this whole statement is empty. It's like those steam statistics of x% of "players" never killing brutus which makes him look like an endgame boss.

Besides, if most of POEs active and relevant playerbase actually played SSF as you claim, then there wouldn't be much downside to make SSF the default and balance around it. But they aren't doing that claiming that trade is necessary to give items meaning while saying most players don't trade so apparently most players are fine with items having no meaning? Or maybe that whole assumption is just nonsense? No matter how you see it that manifesto has so many contradictions and loopholes it's impossible to take that seriously.

That "enitrely different game" argument became void when they introduced ruthless because they are doing exactly that with it. If they can introduce a maso mode on top of the regular game, why not give us an actual SSF mode with improved drops and/or 3.13 harvest? Would require less dev time than ruthless and there would be way more players interested in that.

If you don't like AH - play SSF. There, problem solved.

Of course I am fully aware that AH will never be implemented but it warms my heart to see many people, including streamers, constantly bash GGG for its stupid trading system. This needs to go on.

At some point they're going to have to admit that the trade manifesto describes problems that largely either don't exist or aren't solved by making trade less convenient.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that wiping out the design accretion with PoE 2 is going to be good enough to keep them from facing that for another few years at least.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

And how many of those "never trade" "players" actually make it out of acts? Or act 1 even for that matter. Unless we get some information on what they call "players" there this whole statement is empty. It's like those steam statistics of x% of "players" never killing brutus which makes him look like an endgame boss.

As said...
"...collide with peoples cherished misperceptions..."

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Baharoth15 wrote:

That "enitrely different game" argument became void when they introduced ruthless because they are doing exactly that with it. If they can introduce a maso mode on top of the regular game, why not give us an actual SSF mode with improved drops and/or 3.13 harvest? Would require less dev time than ruthless and there would be way more players interested in that.

Ruthless is a few changes, not a rebalance.

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Cyzax wrote:

As said...
"...collide with peoples cherished misperceptions..."

Ah sorry for questioning your faith, my bad.

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Cyzax wrote:

Ruthless is a few changes, not a rebalance.

Real SSF would also just require a few changes, that's my point. Current SSF + 3.13 harvest. Not a single line of new code needed for a 100% more enjoyable game.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

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Cyzax wrote:

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Baharoth15 wrote:

That "enitrely different game" argument became void when they introduced ruthless because they are doing exactly that with it. If they can introduce a maso mode on top of the regular game, why not give us an actual SSF mode with improved drops and/or 3.13 harvest? Would require less dev time than ruthless and there would be way more players interested in that.

did you check the playercount on ruthless?
guess not.